3 ms·

OK, well, lets twist this around into a form you'll understand. Do you accept that there could be no valid consensual love between master and slave in the deep

OK, well, lets twist this around into a form you'll understand. Do you accept that there could be no valid consensual love between master and slave in the deep south in the height of the slave trade? Do you accept that if such a "love" happened, it would be so clearly tainted by unequal power, the fear of reprisals, the hope for respite and status, that it would be a mockery even if both parties honestly felt it? Now ask how it can be different in prison?

thaumasiotes 13y ago
For some reason I can't quite put my finger on, it feels redundant to say this, but... Did you read the article I linked? It talks about a prisoner who impregnated four of his guards, who then bragged to each other about having his kids. How one of the guards went to the guy for moral support when she found the prison environment too disturbing to handle. How the prisoners passed around tips on seducing the guards. These were not guards with any power over the inmates. The power dynamic we're talking about is one where the prisoners hold power over the guards, not the other way around. > Do you accept that there could be no valid consensual love between master and slave in the deep south in the height of the slave trade? Of course not, no more than I accept that there can be no valid consensual love between a rich guy and his poor mistress. Which of the things you mention as making a "mockery" of master-slave relationships doesn't apply?
- scarmig 13y ago
  There's some huge gap in perspective here, because I find your example an obvious case of rape on the prisoner that doesn't help your case at all.
  - thaumasiotes 13y ago
    Well, I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, so I'll just list some random quotes from the article. > With the ease of ordering takeout, White used a smuggled cellphone to arrange exchanges between outside drug dealers and corrections officers, who brought the contraband to him to be sold inside the jail at huge markups, the affidavit alleged. Percocet went for $30 a pill; one-gram bags of marijuana sold for $50. The gang’s control was so complete that any non-member who tried to get in on the action had to pay a tax or risk physical harm. > Thirteen of them [the female prison guards] allegedly smuggled cellphones and drugs inside their hair, lunches and underwear for the man they called “Bulldog” or “Tay.” One tattooed his name on her neck, another on her wrist. Four have carried his children. > Documents that investigators recovered from the Black Guerrilla Family detail how its new members are taught to target specific officers. Look for women, they are told, with “low self-esteem, insecurities, and certain physical attributes.” > Jon Galley, a top Maryland corrections official, said he likes to show trainees a copy of a how-to guide, confiscated from an inmate’s cell, that lays out how to win over guards. The two pages of tips include dropping a “kite,” or love note, confessing to the officer that the inmate “felt a connection to her, that she was beautiful.” > officials would “turn a blind eye to contraband smuggling and actively protect White and the [Black Guerilla Family] by warning them of investigations,” according to the affidavit. One such warning allegedly came from Tiffany Linder, who had worked at Wal-Mart and Panera, her uncle said, before she was hired to be a guard three years ago. Investigators say the pregnant guard alerted White in January that cells were going to be searched. > In one taped conversation, White boasted that he made $15,800 that month, less than normal. “This is my jail. You understand that?” he said to a friend. “I’m dead serious. . . . I make every final call in this jail. . . . Everything come to me.” White ("the prisoner") is the victim here?
    - scarmig 13y ago
      You seem dead set on saying "Well, guards exchanged other perks for the sex, therefore it wasn't rape!" Which entirely misunderstands what rape is. It's about consent, or lack thereof. Would the guards have been in a position to have sex with him if not for the position of power they were placed in over him? No. Simply because he adopted very successful survival tactics to leverage the sex they were exacting from him doesn't change the fact he had no real ability to consent. It does move toward a bit of a gray area here, because of possible pressure gangs exerted outside the prison. But that makes it even more rapey--if pressure were really being exerted in that way, both people involved were victims of sexual violence. This kind of sexual relationship is not something to glorify or excuse, and the implicit "go for it dude!" shows a great lack of empathy for his situation.
      - thaumasiotes 13y ago
        > Simply because he adopted very successful survival tactics to leverage the sex they were exacting from him doesn't change the fact he had no real ability to consent. This idea is not compatible with White's own opinion of his situation, "I make every final call in this jail". Have we come to the point where third parties decide for you whether you consented to something? > This kind of sexual relationship is not something to glorify or excuse, Did you miss the part where I said it should be criminal, and called for it to be punished more severely than it already is? (The current level is basically a slap on the wrist.) > and the implicit "go for it dude!" shows a great lack of empathy for his situation. Undisputed master of an extensive domain, making upwards of $16K / month tax free, with an extensive harem, and immune to prosecution (he's already in jail!). I'm pretty sure he doesn't need much empathy. The guards weren't extorting sex from the prisoners. The prisoners were seducing guards in order to get perks. (Similarly, if a girl assumes I'm rich, sleeps with me in the hope that I'll buy her some nice things, and I later do, that doesn't mean I was raped. And if I offer a girl something to sleep with me, and she accepts -- that doesn't mean she was raped. What was going on in that prison was analogous to the first girl, and your erroneous notion is analogous to the second.) The agency distinction is important, and we don't just have to assume the prisoners were the agents because they're the men... we have their direct word that that's what they were doing! We have (and I mentioned this) gang literature on how to effectively seduce guards! We have Tavon White's own word that he controls everything that happens in the jail! There's no conceivable way for him to be coerced into sex, or, really, anything, in the middle of his own thoroughly subverted jail.

thaumasiotes 13y ago

For some reason I can't quite put my finger on, it feels redundant to say this, but... Did you read the article I linked? It talks about a prisoner who impregnated four of his guards, who then bragged to each other about having his kids. How one of the guards went to the guy for moral support when she found the prison environment too disturbing to handle. How the prisoners passed around tips on seducing the guards. These were not guards with any power over the inmates. The power dynamic we're talking about is one where the prisoners hold power over the guards, not the other way around. > Do you accept that there could be no valid consensual love between master and slave in the deep south in the height of the slave trade? Of course not, no more than I accept that there can be no valid consensual love between a rich guy and his poor mistress. Which of the things you mention as making a "mockery" of master-slave relationships doesn't apply?

scarmig 13y ago
There's some huge gap in perspective here, because I find your example an obvious case of rape on the prisoner that doesn't help your case at all.
- thaumasiotes 13y ago
  Well, I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, so I'll just list some random quotes from the article. > With the ease of ordering takeout, White used a smuggled cellphone to arrange exchanges between outside drug dealers and corrections officers, who brought the contraband to him to be sold inside the jail at huge markups, the affidavit alleged. Percocet went for $30 a pill; one-gram bags of marijuana sold for $50. The gang’s control was so complete that any non-member who tried to get in on the action had to pay a tax or risk physical harm. > Thirteen of them [the female prison guards] allegedly smuggled cellphones and drugs inside their hair, lunches and underwear for the man they called “Bulldog” or “Tay.” One tattooed his name on her neck, another on her wrist. Four have carried his children. > Documents that investigators recovered from the Black Guerrilla Family detail how its new members are taught to target specific officers. Look for women, they are told, with “low self-esteem, insecurities, and certain physical attributes.” > Jon Galley, a top Maryland corrections official, said he likes to show trainees a copy of a how-to guide, confiscated from an inmate’s cell, that lays out how to win over guards. The two pages of tips include dropping a “kite,” or love note, confessing to the officer that the inmate “felt a connection to her, that she was beautiful.” > officials would “turn a blind eye to contraband smuggling and actively protect White and the [Black Guerilla Family] by warning them of investigations,” according to the affidavit. One such warning allegedly came from Tiffany Linder, who had worked at Wal-Mart and Panera, her uncle said, before she was hired to be a guard three years ago. Investigators say the pregnant guard alerted White in January that cells were going to be searched. > In one taped conversation, White boasted that he made $15,800 that month, less than normal. “This is my jail. You understand that?” he said to a friend. “I’m dead serious. . . . I make every final call in this jail. . . . Everything come to me.” White ("the prisoner") is the victim here?
  - scarmig 13y ago
    You seem dead set on saying "Well, guards exchanged other perks for the sex, therefore it wasn't rape!" Which entirely misunderstands what rape is. It's about consent, or lack thereof. Would the guards have been in a position to have sex with him if not for the position of power they were placed in over him? No. Simply because he adopted very successful survival tactics to leverage the sex they were exacting from him doesn't change the fact he had no real ability to consent. It does move toward a bit of a gray area here, because of possible pressure gangs exerted outside the prison. But that makes it even more rapey--if pressure were really being exerted in that way, both people involved were victims of sexual violence. This kind of sexual relationship is not something to glorify or excuse, and the implicit "go for it dude!" shows a great lack of empathy for his situation.
    - thaumasiotes 13y ago
      > Simply because he adopted very successful survival tactics to leverage the sex they were exacting from him doesn't change the fact he had no real ability to consent. This idea is not compatible with White's own opinion of his situation, "I make every final call in this jail". Have we come to the point where third parties decide for you whether you consented to something? > This kind of sexual relationship is not something to glorify or excuse, Did you miss the part where I said it should be criminal, and called for it to be punished more severely than it already is? (The current level is basically a slap on the wrist.) > and the implicit "go for it dude!" shows a great lack of empathy for his situation. Undisputed master of an extensive domain, making upwards of $16K / month tax free, with an extensive harem, and immune to prosecution (he's already in jail!). I'm pretty sure he doesn't need much empathy. The guards weren't extorting sex from the prisoners. The prisoners were seducing guards in order to get perks. (Similarly, if a girl assumes I'm rich, sleeps with me in the hope that I'll buy her some nice things, and I later do, that doesn't mean I was raped. And if I offer a girl something to sleep with me, and she accepts -- that doesn't mean she was raped. What was going on in that prison was analogous to the first girl, and your erroneous notion is analogous to the second.) The agency distinction is important, and we don't just have to assume the prisoners were the agents because they're the men... we have their direct word that that's what they were doing! We have (and I mentioned this) gang literature on how to effectively seduce guards! We have Tavon White's own word that he controls everything that happens in the jail! There's no conceivable way for him to be coerced into sex, or, really, anything, in the middle of his own thoroughly subverted jail.