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For there to be equilibrium between supply and demand, several conditions must be met: perfect competition; perfect information; no economies of scale; no barri

For there to be equilibrium between supply and demand, several conditions must be met: perfect competition; perfect information; no economies of scale; no barriers to entry; no negative externalities; and no cheating. Things like slave labor, prison labor and child labor are cheating. There's a lot of evidence China cheats the free market in these ways, and that's why I singled them out. For example, "Apple has cut ties with one Chinese supplier that was found to have 74 workers under the age of 16." Source: globalpost.com (January 26, 2013) http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/business/technology/130126/apple-uncovers-child-labor-drops-supplier http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/business/technology/... Foxconn's factories in China installed suicide nets to catch workers jumping off the roof, which sure makes them look like forced labor camps. Picture here: http://news.cnet.com/2300-13579_3-10013733-14.html http://news.cnet.com/2300-13579_3-10013733-14.html

eru 13y ago
If being cheated means being able to buy cheaper consumer goods, come by and cheat me any time you like. Just because a market is not perfect, doesn't mean it provides no benefit.
- ergoproxy 13y ago
  So its OK if Chinese workers are cheated, as long as you get a bargain? The ultimate impact of foreign slave labor on US free labor boils down to this: Is free labor superiority per hour more than counterbalanced by labor that can be flogged, worked to death, and quickly replaced? Is there slave labor with which no free labor can compete? If your answer is no, then go on buying cheap goods produced by slave labor, because it will have no consequences for the US standard of living. But if the real answer is yes, then buying slave-made goods paves the road to slavery for America.
  - eru 13y ago
    Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn about the US standard of living. If anything, the more numerous Chinese deserve around 5 times more caring. (And for the record, the Chinese are not making inroads because of slave labour. They make inroads in spite of some slave labour.)
    - ergoproxy 13y ago
      "deserve": Are you arguing economics or social justice? I'd like to see everyone's standard of living go up. But when equilibrium doesn't exist because of cheating, Pareto optimality no longer obtains, and some people profit at the direct expense of others. Slavery is a prime example. It shouldn't exist at all. I'd recommend anyone reading this thread take a look at "Apple (and America’s) Chinese Slave Labor Problem" by Karl Denninger at http://www.financialsense.com/contributors/karl-denninger/2012/01/23/apple-and-america-chinese-slave-labor-problem http://www.financialsense.com/contributors/karl-denninger/20...
      - eru 13y ago
        > "deserve": Are you arguing economics or social justice? Social justice. I am not from the US of A after all (and even if I was, I don't see the point about worrying about some accident of geography / history).
- ergoproxy 13y ago
  > Just because a market is not perfect, doesn't mean it provides no benefit. Imperfect markets that permit slave labor provide a clear benefit to the slave holders. No real benefits for the slaves--they're worse off. 1st & 2nd theorems of welfare economics say markets in equilibrium are Pareto optimal: In every transaction, at least one party does better, but nobody does worse. Since slaves are clearly worse off, we know there's no general equilibrium in such an imperfect market.
eru 13y ago
> For there to be equilibrium between supply and demand, several conditions must be met: perfect competition; perfect information; no economies of scale; no barriers to entry; no negative externalities; and no cheating. What do you mean by that? Prices work well to balance supply and demand in all kinds of `imperfect' markets.
- ergoproxy 13y ago
  Arrow-Debreu (1954) showed that under conditions of perfect competition, a general equilibrium must exist. But no comparable existence theorem can be found in the various models with imperfect competition. For example, if you remove the condition "no economies of scale," you exclude convex feasible production sets, and you don't get guaranteed existence. Models of imperfect competition need to add other less plausible assumptions to get back existence of equilibrium. (This won't bother Austrian economists or post-Keynesians, because they reject General Equilibrium Theory as misleading and useless anyway. However, these schools of economics don't frame their ideas in mathematics such that it is possible to prove theorems about the existence, uniqueness, and stability of equilibrium.)
  - eru 13y ago
    Arrow-Debreu nice result gives you sufficient theoretical conditions for a unique (!) equilibrium to exist. As you say, in practice, our markets are different, and the conditions don't apply fully. But I don't see how that applies here? There might be multiple equilibria, but that doesn't have anything to do with slave labour.

eru 13y ago

If being cheated means being able to buy cheaper consumer goods, come by and cheat me any time you like. Just because a market is not perfect, doesn't mean it provides no benefit.

ergoproxy 13y ago
So its OK if Chinese workers are cheated, as long as you get a bargain? The ultimate impact of foreign slave labor on US free labor boils down to this: Is free labor superiority per hour more than counterbalanced by labor that can be flogged, worked to death, and quickly replaced? Is there slave labor with which no free labor can compete? If your answer is no, then go on buying cheap goods produced by slave labor, because it will have no consequences for the US standard of living. But if the real answer is yes, then buying slave-made goods paves the road to slavery for America.
- eru 13y ago
  Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn about the US standard of living. If anything, the more numerous Chinese deserve around 5 times more caring. (And for the record, the Chinese are not making inroads because of slave labour. They make inroads in spite of some slave labour.)
  - ergoproxy 13y ago
    "deserve": Are you arguing economics or social justice? I'd like to see everyone's standard of living go up. But when equilibrium doesn't exist because of cheating, Pareto optimality no longer obtains, and some people profit at the direct expense of others. Slavery is a prime example. It shouldn't exist at all. I'd recommend anyone reading this thread take a look at "Apple (and America’s) Chinese Slave Labor Problem" by Karl Denninger at http://www.financialsense.com/contributors/karl-denninger/2012/01/23/apple-and-america-chinese-slave-labor-problem http://www.financialsense.com/contributors/karl-denninger/20...
    - eru 13y ago
      > "deserve": Are you arguing economics or social justice? Social justice. I am not from the US of A after all (and even if I was, I don't see the point about worrying about some accident of geography / history).
ergoproxy 13y ago
> Just because a market is not perfect, doesn't mean it provides no benefit. Imperfect markets that permit slave labor provide a clear benefit to the slave holders. No real benefits for the slaves--they're worse off. 1st & 2nd theorems of welfare economics say markets in equilibrium are Pareto optimal: In every transaction, at least one party does better, but nobody does worse. Since slaves are clearly worse off, we know there's no general equilibrium in such an imperfect market.

eru 13y ago

> For there to be equilibrium between supply and demand, several conditions must be met: perfect competition; perfect information; no economies of scale; no barriers to entry; no negative externalities; and no cheating. What do you mean by that? Prices work well to balance supply and demand in all kinds of `imperfect' markets.

ergoproxy 13y ago
Arrow-Debreu (1954) showed that under conditions of perfect competition, a general equilibrium must exist. But no comparable existence theorem can be found in the various models with imperfect competition. For example, if you remove the condition "no economies of scale," you exclude convex feasible production sets, and you don't get guaranteed existence. Models of imperfect competition need to add other less plausible assumptions to get back existence of equilibrium. (This won't bother Austrian economists or post-Keynesians, because they reject General Equilibrium Theory as misleading and useless anyway. However, these schools of economics don't frame their ideas in mathematics such that it is possible to prove theorems about the existence, uniqueness, and stability of equilibrium.)
- eru 13y ago
  Arrow-Debreu nice result gives you sufficient theoretical conditions for a unique (!) equilibrium to exist. As you say, in practice, our markets are different, and the conditions don't apply fully. But I don't see how that applies here? There might be multiple equilibria, but that doesn't have anything to do with slave labour.