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Old news: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Examples_of_industrial_espionage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Examples_of_industrial... Americans wer

Old news: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Examples_of_industrial_espionage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Examples_of_industrial... Americans were not outraged back then; is there some reason to think they will be outraged today?

ItendToDisagree 13y ago
Because... The Internet. A lot easier to create a buzz currently. Was pretty easy to sweep all of those examples under the rug from a media publicity perspective. Also there is already a great deal more consternation with the parties involved.
- betterunix 13y ago
  We had the Internet when this report on the matter was released: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//NONSGML+REPORT+A5-2001-0264+0+DOC+PDF+V0//EN&language=EN http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//...
  - ItendToDisagree 13y ago
    But was everyone carrying around a pocket telescreen to broadcast their innermost thoughts (or pictures of their meal) at any moment, and to read the same from all of their friends, strangers, celebrities? Was your average middle aged office worker checking their facebook (insert social networking site here) during their spare time between tasks? Did you have digital online contact with your Grandmother/aunt/etc (as is commonly the case for many now)? These are just a couple of examples of how much more heavily the internet is utilized by large groups of people today rather than in 2004. We're much more connected today than 9 years ago.
    - betterunix 13y ago
      We are more connected but the vast majority of people are using that new connectivity to gossip about other people, post photos from parties, and tell people what sort of restaurants they like. People who were not particularly interested in discussing current events are still not discussing current events. At best what you can point to are people clicking "like" when they see a negative comment about the NSA, if even that much. Those people who do want to discuss current events are no more empowered to do so now than they were in the 90s. Take a look at where the discussions are happening: forums (including websites like Hacker News), mailing lists, and personal websites / blogs.
      - ItendToDisagree 13y ago
        I think your final statement is demonstratably false. There are many more ways to discuss things and to promote your interests/views. That is sort of the whole reason crowd funding and the like came about and function. There is much greater interconnection between any given individual than I think you care to admit. Yes the vast majority of social networking is pretty vapid... But to use even a ridiculous example of such, like the Kony memes of 2012, you can see what I'm talking about. The meme became a joke, but brought a lot of attention to something that likely would have just disappeared, or never even have entered the 'public' consciousness otherwise. The Travyon Martin situation (regardless of your stance on it), also became a much larger issue than it likely would have without endless tweets, shares, jokes, memes, etc.
coldtea 13y ago
Well, back in 50's Americans were not outraged for seggregation either. Yet today they are. Public opinion changes, different eras have different limits, etc.
- betterunix 13y ago
  Except that the NSA's involvement in industrial espionage was revealed in the 90s and 00s. We are not talking about the prevailing attitude three generations ago, we are talking about the current generation.
  - coldtea 13y ago
    Well, that was a historical example of something that completely changed over a few decades. You wan't fewer? Compared attitudes to seggregation in the 60s and 70s.
    - betterunix 13y ago
      I do not think you can say that the general attitude about segregation had changed significantly until at least the 80s, when people who had grown up without segregation had entered adulthood. Even with that change, there are still lingering pockets of segregation now, in 2014 -- two generations after Brown v. Board of Education. I doubt that assumptions or attitudes can be changed within a single generation.
tptacek 13y ago
Americans weren't outraged in part because the most highly publicized disclosures from that spying illuminated misdeeds by Airbus.
- betterunix 13y ago
  The passing on Enercon's turbine designs to an American company was at least equally well publicized, and generated equally little outrage.
  - ItendToDisagree 13y ago
    And it was likely reported on for a day at most.

ItendToDisagree 13y ago

Because... The Internet. A lot easier to create a buzz currently. Was pretty easy to sweep all of those examples under the rug from a media publicity perspective. Also there is already a great deal more consternation with the parties involved.

betterunix 13y ago
We had the Internet when this report on the matter was released: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//NONSGML+REPORT+A5-2001-0264+0+DOC+PDF+V0//EN&language=EN http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//...
- ItendToDisagree 13y ago
  But was everyone carrying around a pocket telescreen to broadcast their innermost thoughts (or pictures of their meal) at any moment, and to read the same from all of their friends, strangers, celebrities? Was your average middle aged office worker checking their facebook (insert social networking site here) during their spare time between tasks? Did you have digital online contact with your Grandmother/aunt/etc (as is commonly the case for many now)? These are just a couple of examples of how much more heavily the internet is utilized by large groups of people today rather than in 2004. We're much more connected today than 9 years ago.
  - betterunix 13y ago
    We are more connected but the vast majority of people are using that new connectivity to gossip about other people, post photos from parties, and tell people what sort of restaurants they like. People who were not particularly interested in discussing current events are still not discussing current events. At best what you can point to are people clicking "like" when they see a negative comment about the NSA, if even that much. Those people who do want to discuss current events are no more empowered to do so now than they were in the 90s. Take a look at where the discussions are happening: forums (including websites like Hacker News), mailing lists, and personal websites / blogs.
    - ItendToDisagree 13y ago
      I think your final statement is demonstratably false. There are many more ways to discuss things and to promote your interests/views. That is sort of the whole reason crowd funding and the like came about and function. There is much greater interconnection between any given individual than I think you care to admit. Yes the vast majority of social networking is pretty vapid... But to use even a ridiculous example of such, like the Kony memes of 2012, you can see what I'm talking about. The meme became a joke, but brought a lot of attention to something that likely would have just disappeared, or never even have entered the 'public' consciousness otherwise. The Travyon Martin situation (regardless of your stance on it), also became a much larger issue than it likely would have without endless tweets, shares, jokes, memes, etc.

coldtea 13y ago

Well, back in 50's Americans were not outraged for seggregation either. Yet today they are. Public opinion changes, different eras have different limits, etc.

betterunix 13y ago
Except that the NSA's involvement in industrial espionage was revealed in the 90s and 00s. We are not talking about the prevailing attitude three generations ago, we are talking about the current generation.
- coldtea 13y ago
  Well, that was a historical example of something that completely changed over a few decades. You wan't fewer? Compared attitudes to seggregation in the 60s and 70s.
  - betterunix 13y ago
    I do not think you can say that the general attitude about segregation had changed significantly until at least the 80s, when people who had grown up without segregation had entered adulthood. Even with that change, there are still lingering pockets of segregation now, in 2014 -- two generations after Brown v. Board of Education. I doubt that assumptions or attitudes can be changed within a single generation.

tptacek 13y ago

Americans weren't outraged in part because the most highly publicized disclosures from that spying illuminated misdeeds by Airbus.

betterunix 13y ago
The passing on Enercon's turbine designs to an American company was at least equally well publicized, and generated equally little outrage.
- ItendToDisagree 13y ago
  And it was likely reported on for a day at most.