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While I sympathize with the protesters, the disdain you speak of should surprise no one. First, Yanukovich won the last election when his opponents were in pow

While I sympathize with the protesters, the disdain you speak of should surprise no one. First, Yanukovich won the last election when his opponents were in power. I think this is a good enough indicator that he has lots of supporters. Second, the Ukrainians went through all of this already in 2004 and apparently nothing particularly good came out of it. The country is in the same place it was 10 years ago and Yanukovich can hardly be held responsible for that. Just to add a personal anecdote... I've met a random Ukrainian couple while vacationing recently. They didn't speak Russian at all, so most definitely not from the east or other pro-russia kind of Ukrainians. And when asked about this uprising they expressed complete and utter apathy. They had zero hopes for their lives to improve regardless of the outcome.

IgorPartola 13y ago
Just because he won does not mean that he has the license to abuse his people and steal from them. That is a flawed argument. He also should not have been eligible to run in the first place. Apply it to your country, imagine if it's current leader told you that you could not oppose the government in any meaningful way, have him/her profiteer off his/her position, then tell me if you feel apathy. Anecdotes like yours are useless as well: I am a Ukrainian American from the eastern-most part of Ukraine. I do not support Yanukovych and do care about the protests in that I support the rioters. People that leave Ukraine often are apathetic about the fate of their countries because it does not impact them directly. Even people that live there sometimes can display this behavior. It does not legitimize anything that Yanukovych is doing. Lastly, if he is ousted it does not magically mean that Ukraine will be better off. Ukraine will take 100 years (IMO) to find its identity and grow enough to become a proper democracy. But ousting a corrupt president sends a pretty clear message to any future leader and it is progress.
- austerity 13y ago
  I think you misunderstood me. My argument was simply that there are many people who support Yanukovich and unsurprisingly feel disdain towards those trying to overthrow the president they've elected.
  - IgorPartola 13y ago
    Thanks for clarifying. I understand people in his core regions and pro Russia Russians supporting him. I cannot understand the fairly progressive and very intelligent community here on HN supporting this wanna-be dictator.
    - versale 13y ago
      If you understand the Ukrainian Russians could you please clarify why they support the dictator? Are they not intelligent enough?
      - IgorPartola 13y ago
        No not at all. IMO that has nothing to do with intelligence/education. The issue is twofold. First, most voters in Ukraine have known the USSR and it does skew their views. The "good old times" seem too good to let go. The propaganda machine was strong back then and the idea that Russia could lead the entire region into its former glory does have some appeal. Second, the people with ties to both Russia and Ukraine might actually believe that Ukraine is just a part of Russia and that its independence is a temporary thing. The two countries have a very long history that is full of intertwined interests, population mixing, etc. Remember that Kiev was a prospering city from where the ruling class moved to a tiny fortress up north called Moscow. I do not buy "Ukraine is a Russian territory" mostly based on the treatment that the Ukrainian nationals in the USSR received: artificial feminine, oppression, active suppression of Ukrainian culture and language, etc. The biggest hurdle here IMO is that Ukraine has not been independent for very much of its existence and has only known democracy in the last 23 years. The people have no sense of how a democracy is supposed to look, feel, and work. I think that once people who lived in the USSR are replaced with the generations to follow things might improve slightly. For now this is all really a struggle to find the Ukrainian identity. To put this into perspective think of the US in 1800. Not exactly a stable or peaceful time, is it?
        versale 13y ago
        Ok. So they are rather brainwashed than stupid. In other words they strive for such irrational things like glory rather than better life conditions. Is the actual situation any better than it used to be in soviet times regarding unemployment, affordable healthcare, education?
bluekeybox 13y ago
> I've met a random Ukrainian couple while vacationing recently. They didn't speak Russian at all, so most definitely not from the east or other pro-russia kind of Ukrainians. And when asked about this uprising they expressed complete and utter apathy. If you are Russian-speaking, it is very likely they feigned apathy so as to not offend you or to get bogged down in an extended political argument.

IgorPartola 13y ago

Just because he won does not mean that he has the license to abuse his people and steal from them. That is a flawed argument. He also should not have been eligible to run in the first place. Apply it to your country, imagine if it's current leader told you that you could not oppose the government in any meaningful way, have him/her profiteer off his/her position, then tell me if you feel apathy. Anecdotes like yours are useless as well: I am a Ukrainian American from the eastern-most part of Ukraine. I do not support Yanukovych and do care about the protests in that I support the rioters. People that leave Ukraine often are apathetic about the fate of their countries because it does not impact them directly. Even people that live there sometimes can display this behavior. It does not legitimize anything that Yanukovych is doing. Lastly, if he is ousted it does not magically mean that Ukraine will be better off. Ukraine will take 100 years (IMO) to find its identity and grow enough to become a proper democracy. But ousting a corrupt president sends a pretty clear message to any future leader and it is progress.

austerity 13y ago
I think you misunderstood me. My argument was simply that there are many people who support Yanukovich and unsurprisingly feel disdain towards those trying to overthrow the president they've elected.
- IgorPartola 13y ago
  Thanks for clarifying. I understand people in his core regions and pro Russia Russians supporting him. I cannot understand the fairly progressive and very intelligent community here on HN supporting this wanna-be dictator.
  - versale 13y ago
    If you understand the Ukrainian Russians could you please clarify why they support the dictator? Are they not intelligent enough?
    - IgorPartola 13y ago
      No not at all. IMO that has nothing to do with intelligence/education. The issue is twofold. First, most voters in Ukraine have known the USSR and it does skew their views. The "good old times" seem too good to let go. The propaganda machine was strong back then and the idea that Russia could lead the entire region into its former glory does have some appeal. Second, the people with ties to both Russia and Ukraine might actually believe that Ukraine is just a part of Russia and that its independence is a temporary thing. The two countries have a very long history that is full of intertwined interests, population mixing, etc. Remember that Kiev was a prospering city from where the ruling class moved to a tiny fortress up north called Moscow. I do not buy "Ukraine is a Russian territory" mostly based on the treatment that the Ukrainian nationals in the USSR received: artificial feminine, oppression, active suppression of Ukrainian culture and language, etc. The biggest hurdle here IMO is that Ukraine has not been independent for very much of its existence and has only known democracy in the last 23 years. The people have no sense of how a democracy is supposed to look, feel, and work. I think that once people who lived in the USSR are replaced with the generations to follow things might improve slightly. For now this is all really a struggle to find the Ukrainian identity. To put this into perspective think of the US in 1800. Not exactly a stable or peaceful time, is it?
      - versale 13y ago
        Ok. So they are rather brainwashed than stupid. In other words they strive for such irrational things like glory rather than better life conditions. Is the actual situation any better than it used to be in soviet times regarding unemployment, affordable healthcare, education?

bluekeybox 13y ago

> I've met a random Ukrainian couple while vacationing recently. They didn't speak Russian at all, so most definitely not from the east or other pro-russia kind of Ukrainians. And when asked about this uprising they expressed complete and utter apathy. If you are Russian-speaking, it is very likely they feigned apathy so as to not offend you or to get bogged down in an extended political argument.