5 ms·

FYI, Baltic states and ex-ussr-satellites are doing great in EU. Sure we still got a long way to go. But current state is good enough. Well, at least 10x better

by mantas 13y ago

FYI, Baltic states and ex-ussr-satellites are doing great in EU. Sure we still got a long way to go. But current state is good enough. Well, at least 10x better than Ukraine, Belorussia and other ex-ussr states that stayed together with Russia. Many Russians/Ukrainians/Belorussians come to ex-ussr-now-eu for shopping and medical procedures. Why? Stuff is cheaper and better quality here in Lithuania. And salaries are higher too :) Source: Born and living in Lithuania

radicalbyte 13y ago
I know a number of Belorussians, and they all want to move to the EU. They also regularly drive to Poland for shopping, because it's cheaper and more things are available there :)
- mantas 13y ago
  Yep. Shuttle buses with Belorussian plates and "shopping in Lithuania" slogans is common sight there. Fun fact, Vilnius' IKEA is built next to a highway that goes to Belorussian border. Every 5th or so plate in the parking lot is BY.
- gritzko 13y ago
  Hell yes! Folks from Saint Petersburg shop in Finland. They even order parcels to Finnish addresses next to the border because Russian mail sucks badly. Once I was crossing from Finland to SPb and I was questioned by customs on whether I've bought my stuff in Finland. Apparently, everybody's doing that and they are trying to tax it. Goods are unreasonably expensive in Russia. I was living in Netherlands which is not particularly cheap but Russian prices for the same stuff are 2x NL price normally. Incomes are lower and inequality is hellish. TLDR: cleptocracy sucks.
  - thesz 13y ago
    The Russian mail "sucks" because there was a sudden horrifying jump in mail packages volume. Russian Postal Service wasn't prepared to that. It is doing progressively better as time goes. If you want to talk about cleptocracy, let's talk about US a little bit. Let's start from yellow light duration scandals (from the top of my head): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdD5fvYHtKQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdD5fvYHtKQ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_light_camera#United_States_3 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_light_camera#United_States_...
    - gritzko 13y ago
      Russian mail struggles with that jump for 20 years at least. I am 34.
      - thesz 13y ago
        I had no problems sending and receiving mail packages 10 years ago. I am 42, BTW.
        gritzko 13y ago
        1 I dislike very much the fact of being dragged into a discussion of this kind. Problems of Russian Mail are universally known. 2 Circa 2004 two my parcels arrived to different post offices late and cut open. There was no valuables inside (I wasn't that naive.) Ever since I used express services (DHL, TNT, PE) 3 I heard similar stories from other people (late&open) 4 Recently I received two packages by Russian Mail. They arrived late (1 month travel time) but were not open. An improvement. 5 Still I (we) use tracking to pick a parcel as local offices don't notify receivers. They let a package bounce silently. Forewarned is forearmed. 6 Lady at the post office was very kind. 7 Before receiving my parcels I was studying a vk.com official community for computeruniverse.ru clients, which is full of horror stories and detailed official 20-step instructions on how not to get screwed. 8 The same applies to letters, unfortunately. A local letter may travel for a month (even town hall officials complain about that). 9 A letter I sent from San Francisco arrived to Yekaterinburg in about three months. Just before I arrived myself. 10 YMMV. Russia is a great country. Cheers.
        thesz 13y ago
        1 You started that. They started not long time ago, you can see an onset of jokes about Russian Post Service on the popular jokes site bash.im (former bash.org.ru). This onset started about two or three years ago. 2 Me and my friends and relatives had not have problems at the same time. 7 I can cite you horror stories about everything. 20 steps to eat potato and not get screwed. I think you also heard about selection bias, do you? 10 I think you had to start with YMMV instead of ending with it. Because, you know, for every anecdote you tell I have another anecdote to tell you.
  - solomatov 13y ago
    They buy stuff from Finland not because it's cheaper but because they can return VAT when they cross the border.
_random_ 13y ago
And that is why so many of you go abroad to work?
- adobriyan 13y ago
  Tssk, tssk.
- mantas 13y ago
  If people are not allowed to go abroad at all for 50+ years, they'll naturally flock in bigger numbers once borders are open. To be fair, there's still a huge gap between post-ussr and western countries. But we're catching up. It takes time to fix what 50 years in ussr did. Some people want money & stuff fast, they go abroad. Other people prefer to work on rebuilding their country and/or see more business opportunities in developing market. By the way, it's not only ex-ussrs emigrating. I heard more and more Spaniards and Greeks come to Norway to earn more :)
  - adobriyan 13y ago
    > If people are not allowed to go abroad at all for 50+ years, they'll naturally flock in bigger numbers once borders are open. Or there aren't any real jobs left because EU destroyed real production left from USSR.
    - mantas 13y ago
      USSR times factories were ineffective as hell. They went under simply because they couldn't stay afloat. Outdated technologies, R&D focused on specific parts of weapons, ineffective management, shitty environmental policies... USSR times factories were a complete disaster. All of that closed years before EU. And thanks god they closed. Now I can swim in a lake next to my hometown without worrying about allergies. You know how we could tell what colour carpets the factory is making that day? By looking at a lake next to it :)
thesz 13y ago
You should ask not only your friends and relatives, but all people all around, forming the proper representation. For example, you haven't asked farmers about changes that came to them. Or industrial workers. I almost certain about that.
- bluekeybox 13y ago
  This is getting dangerously close to "no true scotsman".
  - thesz 13y ago
    I believe that yours gets dangerously close to Godwin's. I had in mind that relying only to "statistics" from close friends and relatives skews one's view SO MUCH that one should not even apply that argument in almost any discussion. You either try to get the whole picture of life or live in the sweet bubble. The bubble had its own good properties - less mind energy expended, you can focus on what entertains you most. But that about all. To plan your journey through life you have to have the complete picture, or, at least, try to acquire it.
    - bluekeybox 13y ago
      Please elaborate your Godwin accusation, and explain, in what way you believe that I lack a complete picture. I am fully aware, FYI, that there exists a 30-50% Russian minority in Ukraine (with exact percentage depending on whether you count by ethnicity or by native language). In addition, please explain how it is that the "friends and family" whose opinions you so adamantly declare are irrelevant are also living in bubbles. Are millions of people living in bubbles? Thousands? Dozens? Just me? How many exactly? I would like to hear your answer. Or is it, perhaps, only people you don't agree with who live in "bubbles"?

by mantas 13y ago

radicalbyte 13y ago

I know a number of Belorussians, and they all want to move to the EU. They also regularly drive to Poland for shopping, because it's cheaper and more things are available there :)

mantas 13y ago
Yep. Shuttle buses with Belorussian plates and "shopping in Lithuania" slogans is common sight there. Fun fact, Vilnius' IKEA is built next to a highway that goes to Belorussian border. Every 5th or so plate in the parking lot is BY.
gritzko 13y ago
Hell yes! Folks from Saint Petersburg shop in Finland. They even order parcels to Finnish addresses next to the border because Russian mail sucks badly. Once I was crossing from Finland to SPb and I was questioned by customs on whether I've bought my stuff in Finland. Apparently, everybody's doing that and they are trying to tax it. Goods are unreasonably expensive in Russia. I was living in Netherlands which is not particularly cheap but Russian prices for the same stuff are 2x NL price normally. Incomes are lower and inequality is hellish. TLDR: cleptocracy sucks.
- thesz 13y ago
  The Russian mail "sucks" because there was a sudden horrifying jump in mail packages volume. Russian Postal Service wasn't prepared to that. It is doing progressively better as time goes. If you want to talk about cleptocracy, let's talk about US a little bit. Let's start from yellow light duration scandals (from the top of my head): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdD5fvYHtKQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdD5fvYHtKQ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_light_camera#United_States_3 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_light_camera#United_States_...
  - gritzko 13y ago
    Russian mail struggles with that jump for 20 years at least. I am 34.
    - thesz 13y ago
      I had no problems sending and receiving mail packages 10 years ago. I am 42, BTW.
      - gritzko 13y ago
        1 I dislike very much the fact of being dragged into a discussion of this kind. Problems of Russian Mail are universally known. 2 Circa 2004 two my parcels arrived to different post offices late and cut open. There was no valuables inside (I wasn't that naive.) Ever since I used express services (DHL, TNT, PE) 3 I heard similar stories from other people (late&open) 4 Recently I received two packages by Russian Mail. They arrived late (1 month travel time) but were not open. An improvement. 5 Still I (we) use tracking to pick a parcel as local offices don't notify receivers. They let a package bounce silently. Forewarned is forearmed. 6 Lady at the post office was very kind. 7 Before receiving my parcels I was studying a vk.com official community for computeruniverse.ru clients, which is full of horror stories and detailed official 20-step instructions on how not to get screwed. 8 The same applies to letters, unfortunately. A local letter may travel for a month (even town hall officials complain about that). 9 A letter I sent from San Francisco arrived to Yekaterinburg in about three months. Just before I arrived myself. 10 YMMV. Russia is a great country. Cheers.
        thesz 13y ago
        1 You started that. They started not long time ago, you can see an onset of jokes about Russian Post Service on the popular jokes site bash.im (former bash.org.ru). This onset started about two or three years ago. 2 Me and my friends and relatives had not have problems at the same time. 7 I can cite you horror stories about everything. 20 steps to eat potato and not get screwed. I think you also heard about selection bias, do you? 10 I think you had to start with YMMV instead of ending with it. Because, you know, for every anecdote you tell I have another anecdote to tell you.
- solomatov 13y ago
  They buy stuff from Finland not because it's cheaper but because they can return VAT when they cross the border.

_random_ 13y ago

And that is why so many of you go abroad to work?

adobriyan 13y ago
Tssk, tssk.
mantas 13y ago
If people are not allowed to go abroad at all for 50+ years, they'll naturally flock in bigger numbers once borders are open. To be fair, there's still a huge gap between post-ussr and western countries. But we're catching up. It takes time to fix what 50 years in ussr did. Some people want money & stuff fast, they go abroad. Other people prefer to work on rebuilding their country and/or see more business opportunities in developing market. By the way, it's not only ex-ussrs emigrating. I heard more and more Spaniards and Greeks come to Norway to earn more :)
- adobriyan 13y ago
  > If people are not allowed to go abroad at all for 50+ years, they'll naturally flock in bigger numbers once borders are open. Or there aren't any real jobs left because EU destroyed real production left from USSR.
  - mantas 13y ago
    USSR times factories were ineffective as hell. They went under simply because they couldn't stay afloat. Outdated technologies, R&D focused on specific parts of weapons, ineffective management, shitty environmental policies... USSR times factories were a complete disaster. All of that closed years before EU. And thanks god they closed. Now I can swim in a lake next to my hometown without worrying about allergies. You know how we could tell what colour carpets the factory is making that day? By looking at a lake next to it :)

thesz 13y ago

You should ask not only your friends and relatives, but all people all around, forming the proper representation. For example, you haven't asked farmers about changes that came to them. Or industrial workers. I almost certain about that.

bluekeybox 13y ago
This is getting dangerously close to "no true scotsman".
- thesz 13y ago
  I believe that yours gets dangerously close to Godwin's. I had in mind that relying only to "statistics" from close friends and relatives skews one's view SO MUCH that one should not even apply that argument in almost any discussion. You either try to get the whole picture of life or live in the sweet bubble. The bubble had its own good properties - less mind energy expended, you can focus on what entertains you most. But that about all. To plan your journey through life you have to have the complete picture, or, at least, try to acquire it.
  - bluekeybox 13y ago
    Please elaborate your Godwin accusation, and explain, in what way you believe that I lack a complete picture. I am fully aware, FYI, that there exists a 30-50% Russian minority in Ukraine (with exact percentage depending on whether you count by ethnicity or by native language). In addition, please explain how it is that the "friends and family" whose opinions you so adamantly declare are irrelevant are also living in bubbles. Are millions of people living in bubbles? Thousands? Dozens? Just me? How many exactly? I would like to hear your answer. Or is it, perhaps, only people you don't agree with who live in "bubbles"?