6 ms·

His whole point was that what is on that page IS hostile to many women in the community or thinking about joining it. You don't get to decide what offends or hu

by glesica 13y ago

His whole point was that what is on that page IS hostile to many women in the community or thinking about joining it. You don't get to decide what offends or hurts other people. If the authors had wanted this to be a cute in-joke for the bros, then why did they publish it to the entire world? Why not just send it around to their male friends, but use a more appropriate (and they KNEW the name wasn't appropriate because they tried to cutely head off controversy in their examples) name when they launched it to the public?

overgard 13y ago
> You don't get to decide what offends or hurts other people But you do? Or do we live in a society where whoever is the most offended gets to make the rules?
- Bockit 13y ago
  No, you don't. Whether or not you choose to go ahead with something that will offend people is up to you, but you don't get to choose whether it will or won't affect people.
  - TeMPOraL 13y ago
    People nowdays get offended about pretty much anything. I refuse to pay Dane-Geld[0] to them by worrying about every single word I use, because otherwise they'll never shut up. [0] - http://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/kipling/dane_geld.html http://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/kipling/dane_geld.html
    - vinceguidry 13y ago
      I'm not saying you're an asshole, I don't know enough about you to make that call, but comments like this really make you sound like one. You're basically saying, "I refuse to even try to live harmoniously with others because they're just going to keep demanding shit from me." If you don't want or care to examine your thoughts and actions, that's fine, but getting all high and mighty about it by invoking Kipling and comparing them to marauding Vikings is just silly.
      - victorhooi 13y ago
        I suppose you didn't see the irony of you calling him an a*sehole? The fact that you did it in some round-about passive-aggressive way makes you look even more of one. You see how this just goes around in circles? Look, I think giving up is the wrong tact so I can politely disagree with his viewpoint - we should make an effort not to be dicks - but I certainly get what he's saying. And in my opinion, this stupid bike-shedding about OMGGG!!! He called a project "Bro!!!!" is definitely an example of this. People with too much time, and nothing useful to do. Guys, somebody made an effort to contribute to open-source - and if you actually knew anything about the history of OSS, you'd know this isn't the first name that's caused some small group to kick up a stink. I mean, jeez, "git" - I didn't even see the issue until somebody pointed it out. Or MongoDB - I thought that was stretching it, but no, there really are people offended by that. The list goes on. Basically, there will always be somebody, out there on the Internets that will get offended.
        vinceguidry 13y ago
        I don't think there's anything wrong with deciding in a particular case whether the complainants are being goobers or not. What I do see a problem with is just assuming that everyone trying to do their part to moderate culture so as to be more inclusive is just an Internet whiner. That's just anti-social and it perpetuates the problem of sexism in hacker culture.
        Crake 13y ago
        >What I do see a problem with is just assuming that everyone trying to do their part to moderate culture so as to be more inclusive is just an Internet whiner. This might have something to do with the fact that 99% of the time, they ARE internet whiners. This is why no one wants to be associated with feminism anymore. An over fixation on censorship and a staggeringly low amount of self-awareness.
        xamebax 13y ago
        >no one wants to be associated with feminism anymore Oh gosh, you're commenting on HN, you obviously should have some data to back your opinions with? Right?
TeMPOraL 13y ago
How about just: don't use it if you don't like it. > If the authors had wanted this to be a cute in-joke for the bros, then why did they publish it to the entire world? Are you suggesting that people should refrain from publishing things that are contrary to mainstream fashions? (I can't call all this let's-see-gender-issues-in-everything crap anything else than a stupid fashion that hopefully goes away soon) Also, the joke is about the man pages. Not woman pages (though those exist in Emacs). I suggest we burn Unix and derivatives (and Emacs, this sexist bastard) on the stake of gender issues.
- Perseids 13y ago
  > How about just: don't use it if you don't like it. But I want to use it, it looks like a great tool. Forking it just to use a different name seems unfair and waste of everyones resources. > Are you suggesting that people should refrain from publishing things that are contrary to mainstream fashions? It's not about mainstream "fashion", but about a certain cultural neutrality. I don't ask for this neutrality when you publish articles, essays etc., but when you write tools (or name tools for that matter) I greatly appreciate a mindset where you care about the vastly different context people might come from. > Also, the joke is about the man pages. Not woman pages (though those exist in Emacs). But - as said before - man pages have nothing to do with men and everything with manual. To underline the point: I didn't get the joke until I read the third Hackernews comment. I just don't associate man pages with gender.
  - evolve2k 13y ago
    With this much concern in the community a fork actually isn't a silly idea. Anyone prepared to actually fork this thing? Anyone have other name suggestions?
    - etjossem 13y ago
      Someone else in the thread suggested 'tin', which I love! "What does 'curl' do?" "Does what it says on the tin page." $ tin curl # get the contents of a web page curl https://news.ycombinator.com/
jcromartie 13y ago
> You don't get to decide what offends or hurts other people. While this is of course true, I do not believe that what offends other people should dictate our actions. There is someone out there to be offended for everything you could imagine. Implying that homosexuality is OK or that the universe is billions of years old will offend literally millions of people in the US alone. Implying that women should be allowed to go to school or marry who they want is offensive to plenty of people in the wlrld too. It would be ridiculous to cater to those people's sensitivities! And I feel that it is silly to worry about things like the word "bro".
- hobbit125 13y ago
  >While this is of course true, I do not believe that what offends other people should dictate our actions But it does. Every day. You'd have a pretty hard time if you had absolutely zero filter on what you said to other people and absolutely no concern for other people's feelings. >It would be ridiculous to cater to those people's sensitivities! You're comparing religious suppression of women and homosexuals to creating a conducive and friendly environment for women in technology. These are literally the opposite things. It's like saying "we can't have laws against killing people just because we find it morally reprehensible! some people find allowing gay people to live morally reprehensible! any law at all just puts on a slippery slope toward executing homosexuals!" >And I feel that it is silly to worry about things like the word "bro". Again, it has nothing to do with what you find silly or frivolous. This isn't about you. Until you are truly able to understand that, you're never going to get anywhere on truly understanding issues like this.

by glesica 13y ago

overgard 13y ago

> You don't get to decide what offends or hurts other people But you do? Or do we live in a society where whoever is the most offended gets to make the rules?

Bockit 13y ago
No, you don't. Whether or not you choose to go ahead with something that will offend people is up to you, but you don't get to choose whether it will or won't affect people.
- TeMPOraL 13y ago
  People nowdays get offended about pretty much anything. I refuse to pay Dane-Geld[0] to them by worrying about every single word I use, because otherwise they'll never shut up. [0] - http://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/kipling/dane_geld.html http://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/kipling/dane_geld.html
  - vinceguidry 13y ago
    I'm not saying you're an asshole, I don't know enough about you to make that call, but comments like this really make you sound like one. You're basically saying, "I refuse to even try to live harmoniously with others because they're just going to keep demanding shit from me." If you don't want or care to examine your thoughts and actions, that's fine, but getting all high and mighty about it by invoking Kipling and comparing them to marauding Vikings is just silly.
    - victorhooi 13y ago
      I suppose you didn't see the irony of you calling him an a*sehole? The fact that you did it in some round-about passive-aggressive way makes you look even more of one. You see how this just goes around in circles? Look, I think giving up is the wrong tact so I can politely disagree with his viewpoint - we should make an effort not to be dicks - but I certainly get what he's saying. And in my opinion, this stupid bike-shedding about OMGGG!!! He called a project "Bro!!!!" is definitely an example of this. People with too much time, and nothing useful to do. Guys, somebody made an effort to contribute to open-source - and if you actually knew anything about the history of OSS, you'd know this isn't the first name that's caused some small group to kick up a stink. I mean, jeez, "git" - I didn't even see the issue until somebody pointed it out. Or MongoDB - I thought that was stretching it, but no, there really are people offended by that. The list goes on. Basically, there will always be somebody, out there on the Internets that will get offended.
      - vinceguidry 13y ago
        I don't think there's anything wrong with deciding in a particular case whether the complainants are being goobers or not. What I do see a problem with is just assuming that everyone trying to do their part to moderate culture so as to be more inclusive is just an Internet whiner. That's just anti-social and it perpetuates the problem of sexism in hacker culture.
        Crake 13y ago
        >What I do see a problem with is just assuming that everyone trying to do their part to moderate culture so as to be more inclusive is just an Internet whiner. This might have something to do with the fact that 99% of the time, they ARE internet whiners. This is why no one wants to be associated with feminism anymore. An over fixation on censorship and a staggeringly low amount of self-awareness.
        xamebax 13y ago
        >no one wants to be associated with feminism anymore Oh gosh, you're commenting on HN, you obviously should have some data to back your opinions with? Right?

TeMPOraL 13y ago

How about just: don't use it if you don't like it. > If the authors had wanted this to be a cute in-joke for the bros, then why did they publish it to the entire world? Are you suggesting that people should refrain from publishing things that are contrary to mainstream fashions? (I can't call all this let's-see-gender-issues-in-everything crap anything else than a stupid fashion that hopefully goes away soon) Also, the joke is about the man pages. Not woman pages (though those exist in Emacs). I suggest we burn Unix and derivatives (and Emacs, this sexist bastard) on the stake of gender issues.

Perseids 13y ago
> How about just: don't use it if you don't like it. But I want to use it, it looks like a great tool. Forking it just to use a different name seems unfair and waste of everyones resources. > Are you suggesting that people should refrain from publishing things that are contrary to mainstream fashions? It's not about mainstream "fashion", but about a certain cultural neutrality. I don't ask for this neutrality when you publish articles, essays etc., but when you write tools (or name tools for that matter) I greatly appreciate a mindset where you care about the vastly different context people might come from. > Also, the joke is about the man pages. Not woman pages (though those exist in Emacs). But - as said before - man pages have nothing to do with men and everything with manual. To underline the point: I didn't get the joke until I read the third Hackernews comment. I just don't associate man pages with gender.
- evolve2k 13y ago
  With this much concern in the community a fork actually isn't a silly idea. Anyone prepared to actually fork this thing? Anyone have other name suggestions?
  - etjossem 13y ago
    Someone else in the thread suggested 'tin', which I love! "What does 'curl' do?" "Does what it says on the tin page." $ tin curl # get the contents of a web page curl https://news.ycombinator.com/

jcromartie 13y ago

> You don't get to decide what offends or hurts other people. While this is of course true, I do not believe that what offends other people should dictate our actions. There is someone out there to be offended for everything you could imagine. Implying that homosexuality is OK or that the universe is billions of years old will offend literally millions of people in the US alone. Implying that women should be allowed to go to school or marry who they want is offensive to plenty of people in the wlrld too. It would be ridiculous to cater to those people's sensitivities! And I feel that it is silly to worry about things like the word "bro".

hobbit125 13y ago
>While this is of course true, I do not believe that what offends other people should dictate our actions But it does. Every day. You'd have a pretty hard time if you had absolutely zero filter on what you said to other people and absolutely no concern for other people's feelings. >It would be ridiculous to cater to those people's sensitivities! You're comparing religious suppression of women and homosexuals to creating a conducive and friendly environment for women in technology. These are literally the opposite things. It's like saying "we can't have laws against killing people just because we find it morally reprehensible! some people find allowing gay people to live morally reprehensible! any law at all just puts on a slippery slope toward executing homosexuals!" >And I feel that it is silly to worry about things like the word "bro". Again, it has nothing to do with what you find silly or frivolous. This isn't about you. Until you are truly able to understand that, you're never going to get anywhere on truly understanding issues like this.