21 ms·

The term "bro" has been closely associated in the tech world lately with things like "brogrammer" culture. I don't know whether that was the intended reference

by Steuard 13y ago

The term "bro" has been closely associated in the tech world lately with things like "brogrammer" culture. I don't know whether that was the intended reference in this case (though it seems pretty likely to me that something of the sort was on the authors' minds when they chose the name: why else would the term feel relevant?). But the real issue isn't "What did they intend?" in any case: it's "What impact might this have on others in our community (or thinking about joining it)?" And intended or not, the name of this tool will call to mind the "brogammer" image for a lot of people. And that image is a significant part of what makes the tech community feel hostile to a lot of women. And as I've said elsewhere, these issues aren't about people feeling offended. They're about people feeling excluded. There's a tremendous difference.

overgard 13y ago
Here's the problem with your argument: since there's nothing actually hostile towards women on that page, what you're basically saying is that any expression of male culture at all is "hostile". It's like saying "stop being men! it's chasing all the women away!".
- glesica 13y ago
  His whole point was that what is on that page IS hostile to many women in the community or thinking about joining it. You don't get to decide what offends or hurts other people. If the authors had wanted this to be a cute in-joke for the bros, then why did they publish it to the entire world? Why not just send it around to their male friends, but use a more appropriate (and they KNEW the name wasn't appropriate because they tried to cutely head off controversy in their examples) name when they launched it to the public?
  - overgard 13y ago
    > You don't get to decide what offends or hurts other people But you do? Or do we live in a society where whoever is the most offended gets to make the rules?
    - Bockit 13y ago
      No, you don't. Whether or not you choose to go ahead with something that will offend people is up to you, but you don't get to choose whether it will or won't affect people.
      - TeMPOraL 13y ago
        People nowdays get offended about pretty much anything. I refuse to pay Dane-Geld[0] to them by worrying about every single word I use, because otherwise they'll never shut up. [0] - http://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/kipling/dane_geld.html http://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/kipling/dane_geld.html
        vinceguidry 13y ago
        I'm not saying you're an asshole, I don't know enough about you to make that call, but comments like this really make you sound like one. You're basically saying, "I refuse to even try to live harmoniously with others because they're just going to keep demanding shit from me." If you don't want or care to examine your thoughts and actions, that's fine, but getting all high and mighty about it by invoking Kipling and comparing them to marauding Vikings is just silly.
        victorhooi 13y ago
        I suppose you didn't see the irony of you calling him an a*sehole? The fact that you did it in some round-about passive-aggressive way makes you look even more of one. You see how this just goes around in circles? Look, I think giving up is the wrong tact so I can politely disagree with his viewpoint - we should make an effort not to be dicks - but I certainly get what he's saying. And in my opinion, this stupid bike-shedding about OMGGG!!! He called a project "Bro!!!!" is definitely an example of this. People with too much time, and nothing useful to do. Guys, somebody made an effort to contribute to open-source - and if you actually knew anything about the history of OSS, you'd know this isn't the first name that's caused some small group to kick up a stink. I mean, jeez, "git" - I didn't even see the issue until somebody pointed it out. Or MongoDB - I thought that was stretching it, but no, there really are people offended by that. The list goes on. Basically, there will always be somebody, out there on the Internets that will get offended.
  - TeMPOraL 13y ago
    How about just: don't use it if you don't like it. > If the authors had wanted this to be a cute in-joke for the bros, then why did they publish it to the entire world? Are you suggesting that people should refrain from publishing things that are contrary to mainstream fashions? (I can't call all this let's-see-gender-issues-in-everything crap anything else than a stupid fashion that hopefully goes away soon) Also, the joke is about the man pages. Not woman pages (though those exist in Emacs). I suggest we burn Unix and derivatives (and Emacs, this sexist bastard) on the stake of gender issues.
    - Perseids 13y ago
      > How about just: don't use it if you don't like it. But I want to use it, it looks like a great tool. Forking it just to use a different name seems unfair and waste of everyones resources. > Are you suggesting that people should refrain from publishing things that are contrary to mainstream fashions? It's not about mainstream "fashion", but about a certain cultural neutrality. I don't ask for this neutrality when you publish articles, essays etc., but when you write tools (or name tools for that matter) I greatly appreciate a mindset where you care about the vastly different context people might come from. > Also, the joke is about the man pages. Not woman pages (though those exist in Emacs). But - as said before - man pages have nothing to do with men and everything with manual. To underline the point: I didn't get the joke until I read the third Hackernews comment. I just don't associate man pages with gender.
      - evolve2k 13y ago
        With this much concern in the community a fork actually isn't a silly idea. Anyone prepared to actually fork this thing? Anyone have other name suggestions?
        etjossem 13y ago
        Someone else in the thread suggested 'tin', which I love! "What does 'curl' do?" "Does what it says on the tin page." $ tin curl # get the contents of a web page curl https://news.ycombinator.com/
  - jcromartie 13y ago
    > You don't get to decide what offends or hurts other people. While this is of course true, I do not believe that what offends other people should dictate our actions. There is someone out there to be offended for everything you could imagine. Implying that homosexuality is OK or that the universe is billions of years old will offend literally millions of people in the US alone. Implying that women should be allowed to go to school or marry who they want is offensive to plenty of people in the wlrld too. It would be ridiculous to cater to those people's sensitivities! And I feel that it is silly to worry about things like the word "bro".
    - hobbit125 13y ago
      >While this is of course true, I do not believe that what offends other people should dictate our actions But it does. Every day. You'd have a pretty hard time if you had absolutely zero filter on what you said to other people and absolutely no concern for other people's feelings. >It would be ridiculous to cater to those people's sensitivities! You're comparing religious suppression of women and homosexuals to creating a conducive and friendly environment for women in technology. These are literally the opposite things. It's like saying "we can't have laws against killing people just because we find it morally reprehensible! some people find allowing gay people to live morally reprehensible! any law at all just puts on a slippery slope toward executing homosexuals!" >And I feel that it is silly to worry about things like the word "bro". Again, it has nothing to do with what you find silly or frivolous. This isn't about you. Until you are truly able to understand that, you're never going to get anywhere on truly understanding issues like this.
- Steuard 13y ago
  Brogrammer culture is hostile to women (at least in the sense that most women would feel less comfortable in a workplace dominated by that culture). It doesn't sound like you're arguing against that point. So to the extent that the name of the "bro" command invokes that culture (and that's the point of the joke, right?), it reinforces the association between brogrammer attitudes and tech in general. Embedding that association into the tools we all use seems like a really bad idea. And yes, it could make programming feel one step more hostile for quite a lot of women (and men, for that matter). Fundamentally, I don't think that either intensely male culture or intensely female culture (or for that matter intensely Democratic culture or intensely Republican culture or intensely Episcopalian culture or...) have any place in a professional environment (unless you're working at a Democratic campaign office or an Episcopalian summer camp or...).
  - overgard 13y ago
    > Brogrammer culture is hostile to women (at least in the sense that most women would feel less comfortable in a workplace dominated by that culture). It doesn't sound like you're arguing against that point. I don't even know what that is. Outside the bubble of HN I doubt most people have even heard the phrase. "Bro" for most people references dumb fratboys. Maybe it's a word that's offensive to fratboys, but I can't see why a woman would ever find it offensive.
    - tga_d 13y ago
      I don't know that the problem is so much "offence" as it is reinforcing what has historically been an exclusive culture. As has been pointed out, regardless of the intent of the name, it is going to put off some people. Imagine sitting next to a friend, perhaps just getting introduced to the command line, and telling them, "Hmm... let's check what Bro says!" It just gives a certain connotation. As a bit more extreme example, imagine a command line tool called "aryan". Sure, the name in and of itself might not be offensive, strictly speaking, but it's definitely something that would, and should, be frowned upon. The word has some important connotations.
      - 13y ago
- mscarborough 13y ago
  So, we have enough issues with improving women's place in STE. It's not like we need to invent new ways to keep technology male. I've helped different women with less experience in commandline stuff and linux/unix in general. In the workplace, and with tutoring middle/high school kids of both genders. If I ever had to say "go check the manpage, and the bropage" I would feel like a huge asshole.
  - LinXitoW 13y ago
    Why is the "man" page somehow better?
    - Jtsummers 13y ago
      It's at least short for manual.
    - Fomite 13y ago
      Because a shortening of "Manual" is not gendered. "Bro" is.
      - hackinthebochs 13y ago
        This isn't an answer. It's still a reminder of genderedness just as much as bro is. The word "niggardly" is offensive to some because of its similarity to the n-word. That doesn't make its offense less real.
        Fomite 13y ago
        Intent, and context, matters.
        hackinthebochs 13y ago
        Isn't this whole argument about that people can feel excluded regardless of intent/context?
    - 13y ago
- egghead 13y ago
  Exclusion is a better word for what is going on than hostility. The name is based on the homonym between 'man' as short for 'manual' and 'man' as a synonym for 'male'. Though a tool for manuals the author chose the namesake by the identification with males. Do you see why this might make some people feel excluded, why if you want to make a tool to help people it's probably a good idea to not exclude people? Are you saying the name is a good name? Or just defending the right to be exclusionary?
reallyseriously 13y ago
If you're going to police people on their specific word choice over their intent and actual meaning, are you concerned about hurting "innocent" people? Not everyone loads the same baggage onto the word "bro" that you do. If you're the most sensitive person in the room or office, do you set the rules for speech? Also, the majority of people (both men & women) are hostile to brogrammers so why make it a gender issue?
AndyKelley 13y ago
What's wrong with gendered things? The programming language Julia is female, and nobody seems to have a problem with that. What's wrong with a tool that has a male gendered name?
- donotsurveil 13y ago
  Julia is a first name which is free of negative association. Bro is associated with obnoxious, stupid, despicable, disrespectful.
  - etjossem 13y ago
    Git is associated with completely ignorant, childish, and lacking in manners. So what? It's the name of a piece of software, and if there's sufficient adoption, it starts to lose its old meaning in a tech context. Which, for "bro", is fine by me.
    - pessimizer 13y ago
      Git isn't gendered.
      - etjossem 13y ago
        Right. I'm just pointing out that it's fine to name software something gendered or something associated with obnoxious, disrespectful people. See Julia and Git, respectively, for examples of the above that seem to be working out just fine. The real problem is that 'bro' is inherently masculine in a male-dominated industry - which has unfortunate implications if we're trying to be inclusive of women. That's it. If people use it enough as a technical term for a piece of software, maybe 'bro' - like 'man' - will stop feeling weird when you type it into the command line. Until then, it absolutely is offensive and unwelcoming.
      - TeMPOraL 13y ago
        Thus proving that this whole discussion is about the new fashion of aggressive gender-neutrality.

by Steuard 13y ago

overgard 13y ago

Here's the problem with your argument: since there's nothing actually hostile towards women on that page, what you're basically saying is that any expression of male culture at all is "hostile". It's like saying "stop being men! it's chasing all the women away!".

glesica 13y ago
His whole point was that what is on that page IS hostile to many women in the community or thinking about joining it. You don't get to decide what offends or hurts other people. If the authors had wanted this to be a cute in-joke for the bros, then why did they publish it to the entire world? Why not just send it around to their male friends, but use a more appropriate (and they KNEW the name wasn't appropriate because they tried to cutely head off controversy in their examples) name when they launched it to the public?
- overgard 13y ago
  > You don't get to decide what offends or hurts other people But you do? Or do we live in a society where whoever is the most offended gets to make the rules?
  - Bockit 13y ago
    No, you don't. Whether or not you choose to go ahead with something that will offend people is up to you, but you don't get to choose whether it will or won't affect people.
    - TeMPOraL 13y ago
      People nowdays get offended about pretty much anything. I refuse to pay Dane-Geld[0] to them by worrying about every single word I use, because otherwise they'll never shut up. [0] - http://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/kipling/dane_geld.html http://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/kipling/dane_geld.html
      - vinceguidry 13y ago
        I'm not saying you're an asshole, I don't know enough about you to make that call, but comments like this really make you sound like one. You're basically saying, "I refuse to even try to live harmoniously with others because they're just going to keep demanding shit from me." If you don't want or care to examine your thoughts and actions, that's fine, but getting all high and mighty about it by invoking Kipling and comparing them to marauding Vikings is just silly.
        victorhooi 13y ago
        I suppose you didn't see the irony of you calling him an a*sehole? The fact that you did it in some round-about passive-aggressive way makes you look even more of one. You see how this just goes around in circles? Look, I think giving up is the wrong tact so I can politely disagree with his viewpoint - we should make an effort not to be dicks - but I certainly get what he's saying. And in my opinion, this stupid bike-shedding about OMGGG!!! He called a project "Bro!!!!" is definitely an example of this. People with too much time, and nothing useful to do. Guys, somebody made an effort to contribute to open-source - and if you actually knew anything about the history of OSS, you'd know this isn't the first name that's caused some small group to kick up a stink. I mean, jeez, "git" - I didn't even see the issue until somebody pointed it out. Or MongoDB - I thought that was stretching it, but no, there really are people offended by that. The list goes on. Basically, there will always be somebody, out there on the Internets that will get offended.
- TeMPOraL 13y ago
  How about just: don't use it if you don't like it. > If the authors had wanted this to be a cute in-joke for the bros, then why did they publish it to the entire world? Are you suggesting that people should refrain from publishing things that are contrary to mainstream fashions? (I can't call all this let's-see-gender-issues-in-everything crap anything else than a stupid fashion that hopefully goes away soon) Also, the joke is about the man pages. Not woman pages (though those exist in Emacs). I suggest we burn Unix and derivatives (and Emacs, this sexist bastard) on the stake of gender issues.
  - Perseids 13y ago
    > How about just: don't use it if you don't like it. But I want to use it, it looks like a great tool. Forking it just to use a different name seems unfair and waste of everyones resources. > Are you suggesting that people should refrain from publishing things that are contrary to mainstream fashions? It's not about mainstream "fashion", but about a certain cultural neutrality. I don't ask for this neutrality when you publish articles, essays etc., but when you write tools (or name tools for that matter) I greatly appreciate a mindset where you care about the vastly different context people might come from. > Also, the joke is about the man pages. Not woman pages (though those exist in Emacs). But - as said before - man pages have nothing to do with men and everything with manual. To underline the point: I didn't get the joke until I read the third Hackernews comment. I just don't associate man pages with gender.
    - evolve2k 13y ago
      With this much concern in the community a fork actually isn't a silly idea. Anyone prepared to actually fork this thing? Anyone have other name suggestions?
      - etjossem 13y ago
        Someone else in the thread suggested 'tin', which I love! "What does 'curl' do?" "Does what it says on the tin page." $ tin curl # get the contents of a web page curl https://news.ycombinator.com/
- jcromartie 13y ago
  > You don't get to decide what offends or hurts other people. While this is of course true, I do not believe that what offends other people should dictate our actions. There is someone out there to be offended for everything you could imagine. Implying that homosexuality is OK or that the universe is billions of years old will offend literally millions of people in the US alone. Implying that women should be allowed to go to school or marry who they want is offensive to plenty of people in the wlrld too. It would be ridiculous to cater to those people's sensitivities! And I feel that it is silly to worry about things like the word "bro".
  - hobbit125 13y ago
    >While this is of course true, I do not believe that what offends other people should dictate our actions But it does. Every day. You'd have a pretty hard time if you had absolutely zero filter on what you said to other people and absolutely no concern for other people's feelings. >It would be ridiculous to cater to those people's sensitivities! You're comparing religious suppression of women and homosexuals to creating a conducive and friendly environment for women in technology. These are literally the opposite things. It's like saying "we can't have laws against killing people just because we find it morally reprehensible! some people find allowing gay people to live morally reprehensible! any law at all just puts on a slippery slope toward executing homosexuals!" >And I feel that it is silly to worry about things like the word "bro". Again, it has nothing to do with what you find silly or frivolous. This isn't about you. Until you are truly able to understand that, you're never going to get anywhere on truly understanding issues like this.
Steuard 13y ago
Brogrammer culture is hostile to women (at least in the sense that most women would feel less comfortable in a workplace dominated by that culture). It doesn't sound like you're arguing against that point. So to the extent that the name of the "bro" command invokes that culture (and that's the point of the joke, right?), it reinforces the association between brogrammer attitudes and tech in general. Embedding that association into the tools we all use seems like a really bad idea. And yes, it could make programming feel one step more hostile for quite a lot of women (and men, for that matter). Fundamentally, I don't think that either intensely male culture or intensely female culture (or for that matter intensely Democratic culture or intensely Republican culture or intensely Episcopalian culture or...) have any place in a professional environment (unless you're working at a Democratic campaign office or an Episcopalian summer camp or...).
- overgard 13y ago
  > Brogrammer culture is hostile to women (at least in the sense that most women would feel less comfortable in a workplace dominated by that culture). It doesn't sound like you're arguing against that point. I don't even know what that is. Outside the bubble of HN I doubt most people have even heard the phrase. "Bro" for most people references dumb fratboys. Maybe it's a word that's offensive to fratboys, but I can't see why a woman would ever find it offensive.
  - tga_d 13y ago
    I don't know that the problem is so much "offence" as it is reinforcing what has historically been an exclusive culture. As has been pointed out, regardless of the intent of the name, it is going to put off some people. Imagine sitting next to a friend, perhaps just getting introduced to the command line, and telling them, "Hmm... let's check what Bro says!" It just gives a certain connotation. As a bit more extreme example, imagine a command line tool called "aryan". Sure, the name in and of itself might not be offensive, strictly speaking, but it's definitely something that would, and should, be frowned upon. The word has some important connotations.
    - 13y ago
mscarborough 13y ago
So, we have enough issues with improving women's place in STE. It's not like we need to invent new ways to keep technology male. I've helped different women with less experience in commandline stuff and linux/unix in general. In the workplace, and with tutoring middle/high school kids of both genders. If I ever had to say "go check the manpage, and the bropage" I would feel like a huge asshole.
- LinXitoW 13y ago
  Why is the "man" page somehow better?
  - Jtsummers 13y ago
    It's at least short for manual.
  - Fomite 13y ago
    Because a shortening of "Manual" is not gendered. "Bro" is.
    - hackinthebochs 13y ago
      This isn't an answer. It's still a reminder of genderedness just as much as bro is. The word "niggardly" is offensive to some because of its similarity to the n-word. That doesn't make its offense less real.
      - Fomite 13y ago
        Intent, and context, matters.
        hackinthebochs 13y ago
        Isn't this whole argument about that people can feel excluded regardless of intent/context?
  - 13y ago
egghead 13y ago
Exclusion is a better word for what is going on than hostility. The name is based on the homonym between 'man' as short for 'manual' and 'man' as a synonym for 'male'. Though a tool for manuals the author chose the namesake by the identification with males. Do you see why this might make some people feel excluded, why if you want to make a tool to help people it's probably a good idea to not exclude people? Are you saying the name is a good name? Or just defending the right to be exclusionary?

reallyseriously 13y ago

If you're going to police people on their specific word choice over their intent and actual meaning, are you concerned about hurting "innocent" people? Not everyone loads the same baggage onto the word "bro" that you do. If you're the most sensitive person in the room or office, do you set the rules for speech? Also, the majority of people (both men & women) are hostile to brogrammers so why make it a gender issue?

AndyKelley 13y ago

What's wrong with gendered things? The programming language Julia is female, and nobody seems to have a problem with that. What's wrong with a tool that has a male gendered name?

donotsurveil 13y ago
Julia is a first name which is free of negative association. Bro is associated with obnoxious, stupid, despicable, disrespectful.
- etjossem 13y ago
  Git is associated with completely ignorant, childish, and lacking in manners. So what? It's the name of a piece of software, and if there's sufficient adoption, it starts to lose its old meaning in a tech context. Which, for "bro", is fine by me.
  - pessimizer 13y ago
    Git isn't gendered.
    - etjossem 13y ago
      Right. I'm just pointing out that it's fine to name software something gendered or something associated with obnoxious, disrespectful people. See Julia and Git, respectively, for examples of the above that seem to be working out just fine. The real problem is that 'bro' is inherently masculine in a male-dominated industry - which has unfortunate implications if we're trying to be inclusive of women. That's it. If people use it enough as a technical term for a piece of software, maybe 'bro' - like 'man' - will stop feeling weird when you type it into the command line. Until then, it absolutely is offensive and unwelcoming.
    - TeMPOraL 13y ago
      Thus proving that this whole discussion is about the new fashion of aggressive gender-neutrality.