7 ms·

I'm not feeling oppressed. The problem isn't me feeling oppressed, it's other people feeling oppressed. Poor choice of language can set up an exclusionary envi

by natch 13y ago

I'm not feeling oppressed. The problem isn't me feeling oppressed, it's other people feeling oppressed. Poor choice of language can set up an exclusionary environment. To you, this may be funny. To me, your accusation of humorlessness reminds me of people who engage in sexually harassing "jokes" in the workplace, and then try to get away with it by using "humor" as an excuse. You aren't the one who gets to decide when other people feel uncomfortable.

paul 13y ago
Your attitude and remarks are creating a hostile and uncomfortable environment for me. I demand that you stop immediately.
- mtrimpe 13y ago
  From the Wikipedia link in your profile I see you invented Google's "Don't Be Evil' motto. At least now I finally understand how they manage to still hold on to that. As long as you redefine evil to exclude things you don't feel other people should be hurt by you're all clear!
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - paul 13y ago
    Evil is teaching people to view themselves as weak victims at every available opportunity.
    - mtrimpe 13y ago
      Wait; did you just define calling out a needlessly offensive name as evil? You do realise that would sort of be making the exact point I was trying to make, right? Or am I missing some seriously self-deprecating joke here?
      - paul 13y ago
        Words are meaningless without definition. You say that the word "bro" is needlessly offensive. Let me ask you, where is your balance point? What is the right level of offensive? The cost of censorship is real, and teaching people to be helpless victims does more harm than any word ever could.
        KVFinn 13y ago
        >The cost of censorship is real A portion of your potential audience giving you feedback that think that they the name is bad is 'censorship'?
        mtrimpe 13y ago
        Yet even without definitions you are typing words and I am reading them and we're having a conversation here, so let's not go pretend-meta here. The right level of offensive is the level that, given all viewpoints, does the most to benefit to society as a whole. You're a rich straight white guy whose only discomfort over this comes down to not being able to say whatever you damn well want whenever you damn well please. From this thread you can clearly see that there's a shit ton of people, many of whom have to re-evaluate their every word and action in our industry, for whom this triggers feelings of marginalization, ridicule and disrespect. Insisting on maintaining your privilege over theirs and even going so far as to label their reactions as taught helplessness and defining that as evil ... well ... that pretty much sounds like the root of all evil to me.
        jacobtracey 13y ago
        > You're a rich straight white guy Could you be any more offensive and dismissive? What difference does his cultural background have when discussing the name of a piece of software? Oh, wait, everything right? Cisgendered, rich white men are the enemy! If you want, think of 'bro' as a shortened version of 'brochure'. Is it less offensive to you now?
        mtrimpe 13y ago
- KVFinn 13y ago
  >Your attitude and remarks are creating a hostile and uncomfortable environment for me. I demand that you stop immediately. I don't understand the point you are making. If your remarks were making me feel uncomfortable wouldn't you expect me to say so? Why not?
- natch 13y ago
  Such a tone-deaf retort is typical of those who fail to see the problem. Again the issue isn't about your or my level of comfort; the issue is the environment we set up for young people considering their opportunities in life.
lifeformed 13y ago
I wonder how many female programmers actually feel oppressed by this?
- natch 13y ago
  I doubt many do. The ones who would feel oppressed probably just avoid the field. Which is not an optimal outcome, in case that wasn't obvious.
philwelch 13y ago
Do you realize how patronizing it is when white males get preemptively upset over something instead of letting women and minorities speak for themselves?
- berrypicker 13y ago
  The funny thing is women and minorities are rarely offended by these sort of things but the White males of HN seem to think everyone else is a damsel in distress in dire need of their protection.
railsdude 13y ago
We should compile in a Wiki (or something similar) everything that might make someone uncomfortable. That way, we can look up and make sure this thing never happens. Then, with any luck, a strawperson (not strawman) will never feel like that for something on the internet again.
politician 13y ago
> I'm not feeling oppressed. The problem isn't me feeling oppressed, it's other people feeling oppressed.... You aren't the one who gets to decide when other people feel uncomfortable. But.. you.. are?
chatmasta 13y ago
> You aren't the one who gets to decide when other people feel uncomfortable. > it's other people feeling oppressed Seems a bit hypocritical doesn't it? You are sort of correct. The only person who gets to decide if "he/she" (notice the political correctness?) is offended is "himself/herself." Just as you cannot tell someone he/she is offended, you cannot tell anyone he/she is being offensive. The only person who can label someone as offensive is the person who is offended by the words. Stop getting offended over pointless shit. Nothing can be offensive without offensive intent. 99% of the time, the problem lies with the person getting offended, not the person doing the offending. Nobody has an obligation to feel like they are walking on glass when he/she opens his/her mouth.
dreamfactory2 13y ago
> Poor choice of language can set up an exclusionary environment. Do you have any examples of this assertion to help understand what you are getting at and how it relates to this?
theorique 13y ago
You aren't the one who gets to decide when other people feel uncomfortable. ... because that's your job, I suppose?
LinXitoW 13y ago
Why would this hypothetically offended person not by offended by "man"? They would not use it(as offended as they are), therefore they'd never learn it meant "manual", just as they wouldn't learn that "bro" is short for "brochure"....right?
godDLL 13y ago
You sure felt uncomfortable all over the comments page. Yuck bra.

by natch 13y ago

paul 13y ago

Your attitude and remarks are creating a hostile and uncomfortable environment for me. I demand that you stop immediately.

mtrimpe 13y ago
From the Wikipedia link in your profile I see you invented Google's "Don't Be Evil' motto. At least now I finally understand how they manage to still hold on to that. As long as you redefine evil to exclude things you don't feel other people should be hurt by you're all clear!
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- paul 13y ago
  Evil is teaching people to view themselves as weak victims at every available opportunity.
  - mtrimpe 13y ago
    Wait; did you just define calling out a needlessly offensive name as evil? You do realise that would sort of be making the exact point I was trying to make, right? Or am I missing some seriously self-deprecating joke here?
    - paul 13y ago
      Words are meaningless without definition. You say that the word "bro" is needlessly offensive. Let me ask you, where is your balance point? What is the right level of offensive? The cost of censorship is real, and teaching people to be helpless victims does more harm than any word ever could.
      - KVFinn 13y ago
        >The cost of censorship is real A portion of your potential audience giving you feedback that think that they the name is bad is 'censorship'?
      - mtrimpe 13y ago
        Yet even without definitions you are typing words and I am reading them and we're having a conversation here, so let's not go pretend-meta here. The right level of offensive is the level that, given all viewpoints, does the most to benefit to society as a whole. You're a rich straight white guy whose only discomfort over this comes down to not being able to say whatever you damn well want whenever you damn well please. From this thread you can clearly see that there's a shit ton of people, many of whom have to re-evaluate their every word and action in our industry, for whom this triggers feelings of marginalization, ridicule and disrespect. Insisting on maintaining your privilege over theirs and even going so far as to label their reactions as taught helplessness and defining that as evil ... well ... that pretty much sounds like the root of all evil to me.
        jacobtracey 13y ago
        > You're a rich straight white guy Could you be any more offensive and dismissive? What difference does his cultural background have when discussing the name of a piece of software? Oh, wait, everything right? Cisgendered, rich white men are the enemy! If you want, think of 'bro' as a shortened version of 'brochure'. Is it less offensive to you now?
        mtrimpe 13y ago
KVFinn 13y ago
>Your attitude and remarks are creating a hostile and uncomfortable environment for me. I demand that you stop immediately. I don't understand the point you are making. If your remarks were making me feel uncomfortable wouldn't you expect me to say so? Why not?
natch 13y ago
Such a tone-deaf retort is typical of those who fail to see the problem. Again the issue isn't about your or my level of comfort; the issue is the environment we set up for young people considering their opportunities in life.

lifeformed 13y ago

I wonder how many female programmers actually feel oppressed by this?

natch 13y ago
I doubt many do. The ones who would feel oppressed probably just avoid the field. Which is not an optimal outcome, in case that wasn't obvious.

philwelch 13y ago

Do you realize how patronizing it is when white males get preemptively upset over something instead of letting women and minorities speak for themselves?

berrypicker 13y ago
The funny thing is women and minorities are rarely offended by these sort of things but the White males of HN seem to think everyone else is a damsel in distress in dire need of their protection.

railsdude 13y ago

We should compile in a Wiki (or something similar) everything that might make someone uncomfortable. That way, we can look up and make sure this thing never happens. Then, with any luck, a strawperson (not strawman) will never feel like that for something on the internet again.

politician 13y ago

> I'm not feeling oppressed. The problem isn't me feeling oppressed, it's other people feeling oppressed.... You aren't the one who gets to decide when other people feel uncomfortable. But.. you.. are?

chatmasta 13y ago

> You aren't the one who gets to decide when other people feel uncomfortable. > it's other people feeling oppressed Seems a bit hypocritical doesn't it? You are sort of correct. The only person who gets to decide if "he/she" (notice the political correctness?) is offended is "himself/herself." Just as you cannot tell someone he/she is offended, you cannot tell anyone he/she is being offensive. The only person who can label someone as offensive is the person who is offended by the words. Stop getting offended over pointless shit. Nothing can be offensive without offensive intent. 99% of the time, the problem lies with the person getting offended, not the person doing the offending. Nobody has an obligation to feel like they are walking on glass when he/she opens his/her mouth.

dreamfactory2 13y ago

> Poor choice of language can set up an exclusionary environment. Do you have any examples of this assertion to help understand what you are getting at and how it relates to this?

theorique 13y ago

You aren't the one who gets to decide when other people feel uncomfortable. ... because that's your job, I suppose?

LinXitoW 13y ago

Why would this hypothetically offended person not by offended by "man"? They would not use it(as offended as they are), therefore they'd never learn it meant "manual", just as they wouldn't learn that "bro" is short for "brochure"....right?

godDLL 13y ago

You sure felt uncomfortable all over the comments page. Yuck bra.