7 ms·

Most subway stations in Singapore have walls with doors between the train and the platform. The doors open only after the train arrived and stopped. (It's simil

by jakobe 13y ago

Most subway stations in Singapore have walls with doors between the train and the platform. The doors open only after the train arrived and stopped. (It's similar to elevator doors.) Makes it impossible to fall or jump on the tracks.

TrainedMonkey 13y ago
Same at SFO.
ZanyProgrammer 13y ago
Its too expensive to do that to all Caltrain stations. The reality is there are better things to spend money on for Caltrain (like electrification).
- Karunamon 13y ago
  Would it would really be that expensive to install what amounts to a row of automatic glass doors like you have at the supermarket?
  - archgoon 13y ago
    Yes. http://www.caltrain.com/stations/systemmap.html http://www.caltrain.com/stations/systemmap.html This isn't a subway, where the entry points are clearly defined. Look at this station, for example http://goo.gl/maps/vmYxx http://goo.gl/maps/vmYxx The tracks keep going, with basically nothing protecting them. Putting up walls around the entire thing would be a significant undertaking.
  - kposehn 13y ago
    Sadly yes. The trains that caltrain has are not able to stop within the 12" requirement for automatic platform doors. In addition the platforms are 3-4x longer than in Singapore (I've been there).
    - iaskwhy 13y ago
      What abou the Jubilee line in London? Those are really long platforms.
      - kposehn 13y ago
        Still a bit shorter than Caltrain platforms, but very close. Japan has very long enclosed platforms as well. It isn't that you can't enclose a long platform - more that it is both costly and requires raised platforms with grade separation. Caltrain stations are not designed to restrict platform access to ticketed passengers and anyone can just walk to the end of the platform and go around. Subways and many raised-platform stations on high-density lines are designed to restrict platform access in such a way that it is difficult to get around and hop on the tracks. Of course, not much will stop a very determined person - it is more designed to stop accidents.
  - nmridul 13y ago
    The walls without doors (open at the door area) might be simple. But walls with doors does not seem as simple. If someone gets trapped between the doors, then the train should be disabled from moving. You see it most often - people dashing in at the last moment getting themselves or their backpack getting stuck. The station doors also have to synchronize with the train doors. Else say, the train door opens, you step out but the station door does not open. Now the train is ready to move...
  - potatolicious 13y ago
    Yes. For a few reason: - The train doors need to line up closely with the glass doors, for obvious reasons. Commuter trains in the US are not capable of stopping so precisely. Usually the trains would have to support some kind of computerized stop-assist in order to be precise enough to pull this off. - Said stop-assist wouldn't just be a train feature, it would involve communication with the track, and therefore upgrades to the entire signaling system. Many systems have this "for free" by virtue of being built later. The actual track Caltrain runs on pre-dates Caltrain itself by a wide margin. - You need to run a unified, homogeneous vehicle fleet so the doors are in the same places on all trains. This is the problem with safety doors in large legacy train systems (see: NYC, Chicago) where due to legacy factors there are many vastly different trains all running on the same track. A lot of non-trivial problems where the only solution is vast capital spending.
    - dmnd 13y ago
      Trains already aim to stop such that a door is adjacent to the wheelchair ramp. Do you think it would need to be any more precise than that?
    - kposehn 13y ago
      You pretty much nailed it. For some greater detail: AAR regulations require that trains that run on lines which include freight traffic meet certain weight and crash standards. US freight cars have the highest standard axle loads in the world, so any train that runs where it can hit one must be able to withstand a head-on collision. The sole exception to the rule is when all freight traffic runs at a particular time when no passenger trains are running, with derails (a safeguard) in place to keep any freight from making it on to the tracks outside the window. Caltrain runs on the old Southern Pacific line, which includes several on-line customers and a few branch lines. Due to the way the line is made, there is no way to have the required separation without significant upgrades. Finally, stop-assist is now doable via GPS signals and other lineside equipment, removing the need for signalling upgrades. However, it also requires either lighter equipment or disc brakes on all cars along with equipment in the cab. Both are quite costly, and always require a homogenous fleet with the exact same door configuration.
  - auctiontheory 13y ago
    Caltrain is a train, not a subway. I don't know the technical difference, but the trains are bigger and heavier, and the tracks are not elevated or really separated from their surrounding cities, and the "stations" are really "platforms." In other words, the suicide threat is along the entire length of the route, from SF to San Jose.
- fragmede 13y ago
  ...like BART-ification.
- rdl 13y ago
  I do think there's something wrong with our entire government-paid-infrastructure-system where we pay vastly more than we receive in value when any work is done. If we got fair value for infrastructure projects, I'd like to see a huge amount more transportation, energy, etc. infrastructure in the US -- a lot of what we have is outdated or insufficient. I don't really care if it is government or private industry, but that it costs vastly more to get the same work done in the US than in other places contributes to substandard infrastructure.
  - XorNot 13y ago
    There's a magic formula to making a project go overbudget: 1. Accept the sensible, well-costed proposal for 3-years of intensive works. 2. Announce you're going to cut costs the next year in the budget by reducing the scope. 3. The project is now overbudget, because the cost per unit delivered has gone up since hey, plant and tooling is a big fixed cost. The blame for this lies on the taxpayer, who keeps voting in the idiots who do this or make promises along these lines.
- antrix 13y ago
  It was deemed too expensive for Singapore as well, until public outcry against deaths changed things. Some reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_on_the_Mass_Rapid_Transit_(Singapore)#Platform_screen_doors_and_gates http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_on_the_Mass_Rapid_Transi...
  - chockablock 13y ago
    Unlike that system, Caltrain runs at ground level for >100km through built-up areas, with many (hundreds of?) road crossings. It would be extremely expensive to make the tracks completely inaccessible to pedestrians.
ZanyProgrammer 13y ago
I believe that is just for AirBart shuttle, not for the regular trains.
undoware 13y ago
...or, you know, we could just fix the underlying social injustices that cause so many people to seek to end their lives that it causes friggin delays in my busy little life. Those jerks.
- undoware 13y ago
  I find it fascinating that this got downvoted; I'm not taking it personally, but think about this for a second: - Frank: People keep killing themselves. - Larry: Put up a wall. - Frank: Nah, too expensive. What do you really think of Frank and Larry in this sitch? Be honest. Now, how is that different from what y'all were saying...? Cognitive dissonance reaches for the -1. Had you paid slightly more attention to your discomfort, you could have learned something about yourselves.
  - wonnage 13y ago
    You don't find it fascinating, you're just being an asshole. You took a general problem and made it about yourself - because for whatever reason you've decided your interpretation of the problem rules above all else, and everyone else is blind uncaring sheeple for thinking otherwise. And now you're playing armchair psychiatrist for everyone who disagreed. By the way, I think Larry is a genius and a comedian in your situation because what the fuck else can you say to a blanket statement like "People keep killing themselves"?
    - undoware 13y ago
      Is pointing out an ethical blind spot really 'being an asshole'? And yes, I'm playing armchair psychiatrist, because the only alternative is to think less of people. I'd rather understand them than judge. And you? HN will mature as a platform for discourse when it becomes less of a concentrator of one particular worldview and more of a reactor of many.
      - 001sky 13y ago
        - Frank: People keep killing themselves. - Larry: Put up a wall. - Frank: Nah, they'll just jump off it FTFY
yeukhon 13y ago
Are Singapore trains indoor and/or on highway bridge? Most caltrains stations are open platform. Not sure if you have ever been on a caltrain, it runs between suburban area so anyone can just lay herself on the track at any point.
- jakobe 13y ago
  It's a subway, so it's in underground tunnels :) However, there are some above ground sections, and I think the stations there don't have walls. It's been ten years since I've been there, so things might have changed...
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - bvi 13y ago
    No. All MRT stations - above and under ground - have platform doors. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_on_the_Mass_Rapid_Transit_%28Singapore%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_on_the_Mass_Rapid_Transi...
product50 13y ago
I would rather spend more money on widening the 101 freeway or building a new one rather than spending ton of money on Caltrain doors.
- epoxyhockey 13y ago
  Urban planning 101 teaches one that bigger roads do not decrease traffic, they actually increase traffic.
  - zaroth 13y ago
    Common sense 101 teaches that this can only be true after some point. In the case of this particular "101", that point is not yet met. However, when the cost of 6.4 miles of single-lane is $72 million, it does get a bit pricey. [1] They are planning to add another TOLL/HOV lane for most of the corridor, and open up the existing HOV to TOLL. You might get to drive it in 2018! But I don't see cost estimates for that one yet. [2] [1] - http://www.vta.org/projects-and-programs/highway/us-101-auxiliary-lanes http://www.vta.org/projects-and-programs/highway/us-101-auxi... [2] - http://www.vta.org/projects-and-programs/highway/us-101-express-lanes http://www.vta.org/projects-and-programs/highway/us-101-expr...
  - erichocean 13y ago
    Curious, is the opposite true? Maybe we should drop the 101 down to one lane, and the speed limit to 25 for good measure? Then there would be practically no traffic at all, as everyone would avoid it like the plague. Problem solved! /joking, obviously
  - oh_sigh 13y ago
    So why does Pyongyang have huge highways and few drivers?
a3_nm 13y ago
Agreed. We have them in Paris at a minority of stations. Hopefully this will eventually be ubiquitous and not having them, like elevators with no internal doors, will seem extremely outdated. (Yes, this must be costly, but it's not just relevant to prevent suicides. I have once been at the very brink of a subway platform in Paris without that did not have such equipment, along with a huge crowd of other people who were eager to get in the train. Anyone behind could just push anybody on the (electrified) tracks, and if panic were to break out for any reason it would have been a disaster.)
wtracy 13y ago
For every station platform, there's half a dozen pedestrian-accessible grade crossings. There's nothing you could really do without rebuilding the whole thing.

by jakobe 13y ago

TrainedMonkey 13y ago

Same at SFO.

ZanyProgrammer 13y ago

Its too expensive to do that to all Caltrain stations. The reality is there are better things to spend money on for Caltrain (like electrification).

Karunamon 13y ago
Would it would really be that expensive to install what amounts to a row of automatic glass doors like you have at the supermarket?
- archgoon 13y ago
  Yes. http://www.caltrain.com/stations/systemmap.html http://www.caltrain.com/stations/systemmap.html This isn't a subway, where the entry points are clearly defined. Look at this station, for example http://goo.gl/maps/vmYxx http://goo.gl/maps/vmYxx The tracks keep going, with basically nothing protecting them. Putting up walls around the entire thing would be a significant undertaking.
- kposehn 13y ago
  Sadly yes. The trains that caltrain has are not able to stop within the 12" requirement for automatic platform doors. In addition the platforms are 3-4x longer than in Singapore (I've been there).
  - iaskwhy 13y ago
    What abou the Jubilee line in London? Those are really long platforms.
    - kposehn 13y ago
      Still a bit shorter than Caltrain platforms, but very close. Japan has very long enclosed platforms as well. It isn't that you can't enclose a long platform - more that it is both costly and requires raised platforms with grade separation. Caltrain stations are not designed to restrict platform access to ticketed passengers and anyone can just walk to the end of the platform and go around. Subways and many raised-platform stations on high-density lines are designed to restrict platform access in such a way that it is difficult to get around and hop on the tracks. Of course, not much will stop a very determined person - it is more designed to stop accidents.
- nmridul 13y ago
  The walls without doors (open at the door area) might be simple. But walls with doors does not seem as simple. If someone gets trapped between the doors, then the train should be disabled from moving. You see it most often - people dashing in at the last moment getting themselves or their backpack getting stuck. The station doors also have to synchronize with the train doors. Else say, the train door opens, you step out but the station door does not open. Now the train is ready to move...
- potatolicious 13y ago
  Yes. For a few reason: - The train doors need to line up closely with the glass doors, for obvious reasons. Commuter trains in the US are not capable of stopping so precisely. Usually the trains would have to support some kind of computerized stop-assist in order to be precise enough to pull this off. - Said stop-assist wouldn't just be a train feature, it would involve communication with the track, and therefore upgrades to the entire signaling system. Many systems have this "for free" by virtue of being built later. The actual track Caltrain runs on pre-dates Caltrain itself by a wide margin. - You need to run a unified, homogeneous vehicle fleet so the doors are in the same places on all trains. This is the problem with safety doors in large legacy train systems (see: NYC, Chicago) where due to legacy factors there are many vastly different trains all running on the same track. A lot of non-trivial problems where the only solution is vast capital spending.
  - dmnd 13y ago
    Trains already aim to stop such that a door is adjacent to the wheelchair ramp. Do you think it would need to be any more precise than that?
  - kposehn 13y ago
    You pretty much nailed it. For some greater detail: AAR regulations require that trains that run on lines which include freight traffic meet certain weight and crash standards. US freight cars have the highest standard axle loads in the world, so any train that runs where it can hit one must be able to withstand a head-on collision. The sole exception to the rule is when all freight traffic runs at a particular time when no passenger trains are running, with derails (a safeguard) in place to keep any freight from making it on to the tracks outside the window. Caltrain runs on the old Southern Pacific line, which includes several on-line customers and a few branch lines. Due to the way the line is made, there is no way to have the required separation without significant upgrades. Finally, stop-assist is now doable via GPS signals and other lineside equipment, removing the need for signalling upgrades. However, it also requires either lighter equipment or disc brakes on all cars along with equipment in the cab. Both are quite costly, and always require a homogenous fleet with the exact same door configuration.
- auctiontheory 13y ago
  Caltrain is a train, not a subway. I don't know the technical difference, but the trains are bigger and heavier, and the tracks are not elevated or really separated from their surrounding cities, and the "stations" are really "platforms." In other words, the suicide threat is along the entire length of the route, from SF to San Jose.
fragmede 13y ago
...like BART-ification.
rdl 13y ago
I do think there's something wrong with our entire government-paid-infrastructure-system where we pay vastly more than we receive in value when any work is done. If we got fair value for infrastructure projects, I'd like to see a huge amount more transportation, energy, etc. infrastructure in the US -- a lot of what we have is outdated or insufficient. I don't really care if it is government or private industry, but that it costs vastly more to get the same work done in the US than in other places contributes to substandard infrastructure.
- XorNot 13y ago
  There's a magic formula to making a project go overbudget: 1. Accept the sensible, well-costed proposal for 3-years of intensive works. 2. Announce you're going to cut costs the next year in the budget by reducing the scope. 3. The project is now overbudget, because the cost per unit delivered has gone up since hey, plant and tooling is a big fixed cost. The blame for this lies on the taxpayer, who keeps voting in the idiots who do this or make promises along these lines.
antrix 13y ago
It was deemed too expensive for Singapore as well, until public outcry against deaths changed things. Some reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_on_the_Mass_Rapid_Transit_(Singapore)#Platform_screen_doors_and_gates http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_on_the_Mass_Rapid_Transi...
- chockablock 13y ago
  Unlike that system, Caltrain runs at ground level for >100km through built-up areas, with many (hundreds of?) road crossings. It would be extremely expensive to make the tracks completely inaccessible to pedestrians.

ZanyProgrammer 13y ago

I believe that is just for AirBart shuttle, not for the regular trains.

undoware 13y ago

...or, you know, we could just fix the underlying social injustices that cause so many people to seek to end their lives that it causes friggin delays in my busy little life. Those jerks.

undoware 13y ago
I find it fascinating that this got downvoted; I'm not taking it personally, but think about this for a second: - Frank: People keep killing themselves. - Larry: Put up a wall. - Frank: Nah, too expensive. What do you really think of Frank and Larry in this sitch? Be honest. Now, how is that different from what y'all were saying...? Cognitive dissonance reaches for the -1. Had you paid slightly more attention to your discomfort, you could have learned something about yourselves.
- wonnage 13y ago
  You don't find it fascinating, you're just being an asshole. You took a general problem and made it about yourself - because for whatever reason you've decided your interpretation of the problem rules above all else, and everyone else is blind uncaring sheeple for thinking otherwise. And now you're playing armchair psychiatrist for everyone who disagreed. By the way, I think Larry is a genius and a comedian in your situation because what the fuck else can you say to a blanket statement like "People keep killing themselves"?
  - undoware 13y ago
    Is pointing out an ethical blind spot really 'being an asshole'? And yes, I'm playing armchair psychiatrist, because the only alternative is to think less of people. I'd rather understand them than judge. And you? HN will mature as a platform for discourse when it becomes less of a concentrator of one particular worldview and more of a reactor of many.
    - 001sky 13y ago
      - Frank: People keep killing themselves. - Larry: Put up a wall. - Frank: Nah, they'll just jump off it FTFY

yeukhon 13y ago

Are Singapore trains indoor and/or on highway bridge? Most caltrains stations are open platform. Not sure if you have ever been on a caltrain, it runs between suburban area so anyone can just lay herself on the track at any point.

jakobe 13y ago
It's a subway, so it's in underground tunnels :) However, there are some above ground sections, and I think the stations there don't have walls. It's been ten years since I've been there, so things might have changed...
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- bvi 13y ago
  No. All MRT stations - above and under ground - have platform doors. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_on_the_Mass_Rapid_Transit_%28Singapore%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_on_the_Mass_Rapid_Transi...

product50 13y ago

I would rather spend more money on widening the 101 freeway or building a new one rather than spending ton of money on Caltrain doors.

epoxyhockey 13y ago
Urban planning 101 teaches one that bigger roads do not decrease traffic, they actually increase traffic.
- zaroth 13y ago
  Common sense 101 teaches that this can only be true after some point. In the case of this particular "101", that point is not yet met. However, when the cost of 6.4 miles of single-lane is $72 million, it does get a bit pricey. [1] They are planning to add another TOLL/HOV lane for most of the corridor, and open up the existing HOV to TOLL. You might get to drive it in 2018! But I don't see cost estimates for that one yet. [2] [1] - http://www.vta.org/projects-and-programs/highway/us-101-auxiliary-lanes http://www.vta.org/projects-and-programs/highway/us-101-auxi... [2] - http://www.vta.org/projects-and-programs/highway/us-101-express-lanes http://www.vta.org/projects-and-programs/highway/us-101-expr...
- erichocean 13y ago
  Curious, is the opposite true? Maybe we should drop the 101 down to one lane, and the speed limit to 25 for good measure? Then there would be practically no traffic at all, as everyone would avoid it like the plague. Problem solved! /joking, obviously
- oh_sigh 13y ago
  So why does Pyongyang have huge highways and few drivers?

a3_nm 13y ago

Agreed. We have them in Paris at a minority of stations. Hopefully this will eventually be ubiquitous and not having them, like elevators with no internal doors, will seem extremely outdated. (Yes, this must be costly, but it's not just relevant to prevent suicides. I have once been at the very brink of a subway platform in Paris without that did not have such equipment, along with a huge crowd of other people who were eager to get in the train. Anyone behind could just push anybody on the (electrified) tracks, and if panic were to break out for any reason it would have been a disaster.)

wtracy 13y ago

For every station platform, there's half a dozen pedestrian-accessible grade crossings. There's nothing you could really do without rebuilding the whole thing.