6 ms·

BeWifi lets you steal your neighbor’s bandwidth when they’re not using it

93 points by a_olt 13y ago

pablovidal85 13y ago
Now I understand why Telefónica forced me to have WEP 128 that was automatically generated from the SSID. After I asked them to set up my own password (the router was password protected) they suggested I tell them what password I wanted over the phone. I switched ISP two weeks ago.
kentwistle 13y ago
This looks awesome
killahpriest 13y ago
There's no way ISPs in the US will allow this.
- cjfont 13y ago
  It would be hard for them to prevent it, to them it would look like it's just another computer on the wifi.
- SudoNick 13y ago
  Well, there is Comcast's program to deploy dual-WiFi APs. One side for the subscriber, one side for Comcast to use as it sees fit (public hotspot being a declared use): http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/06/comcast-turns-your-xfinity-modem-into-public-wi-fi-hotspot/ http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/06/comcas...
  - walshemj 13y ago
    so Comcast is going to be paying me for the use of my facilities to host its plant cool - just like if i have a telegraph pole on my land I get rent.
    - SudoNick 13y ago
      It doesn't hurt to dream. Normally ;) BTW, this type of thing might be or become more widespread than I initially thought: http://www.cablewifi.com/ http://www.cablewifi.com/
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
k3oni 13y ago
My neighbor is already using my WiFi, he was paying $10 to AOL(yes there are still ppl using AOL) for dial-up so i gave him WiFi for free :).
- mrkickling 13y ago
  That's very kind of you. Our neighbor has an open WiFi that my family uses when our WiFi is misbehaving. I wish I could give something back, but I don't even know which neighbor it is.
  - k3oni 13y ago
    Well he's a bit older and struggling with money as it is, i actually got him a directional antenna and installed a omnidirectional one in my house for him to get a good reception.. Hes mostly playing on-line games and checking his email and the stock market.
- jloughry 13y ago
  Some time ago I made a second SSID on my wireless router and gave it this standard name: https://openwireless.org/ https://openwireless.org/ Unfortunately, I've never noticed anyone using it. Anecdotally, however, take this as one data point that I've never had a problem with bandwidth hogs. It sure comes in handy when guests come over---there's no password to explain. I wish more people would do what you did.
chimeracoder 13y ago
> What if, when you were up at a ridiculous hour Skyping your relatives in Australia, you could borrow unused bandwidth from your sleeping neighbors to make your own broadband connection faster and stronger? Maybe this makes sense if you're lucky enough to have FiOS (which gives you a dedicated line). For me (a Time Warner customer), this is already the case. Except, it's not "borrowing" so much as it is "stealing". Technically, I should have 2.5MB/s down (20Mb/s is what I pay for), but in reality, I'm often lucky to get 1MB/s, because my neighbors are using the Internet and watching Netflix, etc. And I have never observed more than 2.5MB/s, so it doesn't average out. Theoretically, this should already be illegal, but it's still very common in practice. For this inconsistent connection (and no other services!), I am forced to pay over $50/month. Edit: Updated - I pay for 20Mb/s, not 15Mb/s.
- sliverstorm 13y ago
  Your neighbors aren't stealing from you, your ISP over allocated your trunk.
- mrkickling 13y ago
  15Mb/s=1.875MB/s.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- vr000m 13y ago
  Get one of samknows boxes[1] to measure your broadband. It is like a bandwidth test but mainly measures when you are not using your home network, i.e., it senses for traffic before making measurements. You'll be able to see a historic graph of the available bandwidth, average RTT (to some popular sites) and losses (if any), DNS response times, etc. They run some of the above tests once every hour. The good thing with this initiative is it attempts to build an IETF standard [2] that can be incorporated by all ISPs to make sure that their deployed network is performant. [1] http://www.samknows.com/broadband/ http://www.samknows.com/broadband/ [2] https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/lmap/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/lmap/
- tssva 13y ago
pmorici 13y ago
Sounds like a slight twist on Fon[0] The problem for things like this is it is only really useful if it is ubiquitous in your area hopefully they have a plan to kickstart adoption otherwise who cares. [0] https://corp.fon.com/en https://corp.fon.com/en
- kaoD 13y ago
  In Spain is customary for ISPs to provide routers to their customers. They'll just have to install their custom firmware (which I think they do already) and get the customer to opt-in (or not opt-out, given recent trends). It's easier to take your customers to opt-in if you're a huge company like Telefónica.
crazygringo 13y ago
Using the example in the article, how is it technically possible for me to Skype with someone, while dividing the stream between two IP addresses (of the two different routers)? I mean, Skype's going to be sending my conversational partner's audio to a single IP address that represents me, no? How could that be divided among multiple people's bandwidth, technically speaking?
- dangrossman 13y ago
  It probably doesn't. It can still take advantage of the pooling by, for example, routing your Skype call through your neighbor's connection because yours is already busy streaming Netflix in another room. My concern would be my neighbor downloading movie torrents on my connection while I'm asleep. We'd need a really strong legal precedent that the person paying for the connection isn't responsible for what others do on it before this kind of thing could catch on in most countries.
  - mbreese 13y ago
    If it's done by routing, then potentially, the final IP address would still be that of your torrent downloading neighbor. But, the devil's in the details.
    - andreasvc 13y ago
      No, you typically get one publicly routed IP address from your ISP. The local IP address that initiated the connection is not visible to the internet from behind NAT.
      - mbreese 13y ago
        But it could be conceivable that your public IP is being routed through some one else's public IP/mesh router. I'm not sure how the actual packet flow in this case works, and with a mesh it's unclear how the packets get back to the original router. Everyone can't just be connection g to the same wireless ssid or you wouldn't be able to avoid local faults. So, the mesh would likely be able to distinguish which packets came from which subscriber. Again though, without knowing more about the protocol/mesh they are using, it would be impossible to know.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
vr000m 13y ago
MPTCP and MPRTP to the rescue... these also have inbuilt algorithms to pick the best interface. http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-singh-avtcore-mprtp http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-singh-avtcore-mprtp (for skype and multimedia) https://tools.ietf.org/wg/mptcp/ https://tools.ietf.org/wg/mptcp/ (for everything else, even Siri)
- windexh8er 13y ago
  It was interesting to see everyone rage about how amazing Apple was to be leveraging MPTCP in the latest version of iOS. However most don't realize the implications and risks that these types of things bring to generalized use cases and operational models of networking and paid for data buckets. Regardless it looks like these guys are just taking the Commotion firmware and re-branding it as a service. It also doesn't solve the local node problem. Most people don't understand how cable (HFC), fiber and copper (DSL) are built out to the neighborhood or 'node'. It's all oversubscribed and shared. So this type of solution really does nothing for the local congestion in a node. To me, this is a pure marketing gimmick.
  - vr000m 13y ago
    At the networking stack level, it depends on how one implements congestion control. AFAIR, in the case of Apple/MPTCP: they were sending the same packet on both the interfaces and hoping for the best delay (a really bad idea) unless you are in a managed network else you are just creating unnecessary congestion. OTOH, if the last mile is oversubscribed, there is very little one can do.
bladedtoys 13y ago
Telefonica is also an isp. Or more exactly it is the isp in Spain: it owns the wires and has overwhelming dominance in the market. So (@dangrossman) the legal issue is averted: both costumers are in the same isp which, to them, works like a black box. So the article's use of the word "steal" is quite nonsensical. Also remarkable is the advanced anticipation of demand. For example, Netflix is not even available in Spain and bandwidth demand is currently low compared to say the US. My guess is that it is not to facilitate video over the internet etc. but that it is a cheap way to undercut competition from Vodfone and Orange (other Spanish providers). Bandwidth sharing might mean more consistent high bandwidth for those who need it. Actually the potential issue is inverted: you may not be able not opt out of the system. The other potential issue is Telefonica itself. Historically it has been as appalling company to customers. It is possible this is changing but there certainly used to be a long track record of awfulness. Indeed it is my utter shock that Telefonica of all companies on earth would manage to do something of this sort that is compelling me to ramble on like this. If Telefonica is changing, kudos!
manishsharan 13y ago
I thought this was very cool and would be happy to "lend" my neighbor my unused bandwidth but then I thought what if my neighbor is skyping with a cousin in Australia or wherever and this cousin orders his pizza from the same pizzeria where a al-qaeda guys orders his pizza and lo behold I get put on a no-fly list .
- quantumpotato_ 13y ago
  Well it sounds like "the terrorists" have won the war in your mind. Fearing the state you turn your back on your neighbor.
kirtijthorat 13y ago
Liked it. Very intelligent way to utilize the spare bandwidth. One thing everyone forgets is that we are actually paying for the full-month bandwidth from Cable companies so they shouldn't worry if I use it 24 x 7 x 30 OR my neighbor. As long as there is mechanism to give priority to the owner when he demands the full bandwidth.
zackmorris 13y ago
Maybe a stupid question but - are there regulations ISPs might use against this? I know it's illegal in most places to resell your bandwidth to neighbors and I wouldn't put it past them to equate giving away with selling. I also wonder if HBO and other channels might get overzealous and shut people down for the p2p nature of it. But all that said, this is the obvious future of the web until we have a true, free, ad hoc/distributed network and on some level I can't believe it took this long to get the ball rolling..
- hueving 13y ago
  Is it actually illegal to resell? I was under the impression that it was just a contractual agreement with the provider not to resell.
S4M 13y ago
So, I could download pedophile pictures with my neighbor's wifi bandwidth?
TheLoneWolfling 13y ago
...So my neighbor decides to download a torrent and all of a sudden I am hit with a lawsuit? Unless this issue can be solved, no thanks.
matthewcford 13y ago
BT already do this in the UK with their infinity routers, they run a separate public channel (BTWiFi), I've got one in my flat right now. Anyone can connect to it for free if you're a BT customer elsewhere or you can pay. It doesn't effect my bandwidth as most plans are unlimited anyway.
ballard 13y ago
This reminds me of Radiuz, but the problem was that it was a double-ended userbase that needed far more press and capital to survive. http://wifinetnews.com/archives/2004/06/radiuz_combines_wpa-enterprise_with_free_access.html http://wifinetnews.com/archives/2004/06/radiuz_combines_wpa-... Perhaps this solves the problem of not having to deliver as much aggregate bandwidth as isolated pipes on a per carrier basis, but cross carriers may or may not go for it, like "roaming."
gootik 13y ago
In an ideal world of BeWifi everyone will be a member and the internet will be shared between all the members. Does this mean if we all downgraded our connections to the basic offering of our choice ISP we could still get a decent connection and in return force ISPs to lower their prices for higher connections? Seems like a never ending cycle.

93 points by a_olt 13y ago

Now I understand why Telefónica forced me to have WEP 128 that was automatically generated from the SSID. After I asked them to set up my own password (the router was password protected) they suggested I tell them what password I wanted over the phone. I switched ISP two weeks ago.

kentwistle 13y ago

This looks awesome

killahpriest 13y ago

There's no way ISPs in the US will allow this.

cjfont 13y ago
It would be hard for them to prevent it, to them it would look like it's just another computer on the wifi.
SudoNick 13y ago
Well, there is Comcast's program to deploy dual-WiFi APs. One side for the subscriber, one side for Comcast to use as it sees fit (public hotspot being a declared use): http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/06/comcast-turns-your-xfinity-modem-into-public-wi-fi-hotspot/ http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/06/comcas...
- walshemj 13y ago
  so Comcast is going to be paying me for the use of my facilities to host its plant cool - just like if i have a telegraph pole on my land I get rent.
  - SudoNick 13y ago
    It doesn't hurt to dream. Normally ;) BTW, this type of thing might be or become more widespread than I initially thought: http://www.cablewifi.com/ http://www.cablewifi.com/

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

k3oni 13y ago

My neighbor is already using my WiFi, he was paying $10 to AOL(yes there are still ppl using AOL) for dial-up so i gave him WiFi for free :).

mrkickling 13y ago
That's very kind of you. Our neighbor has an open WiFi that my family uses when our WiFi is misbehaving. I wish I could give something back, but I don't even know which neighbor it is.
- k3oni 13y ago
  Well he's a bit older and struggling with money as it is, i actually got him a directional antenna and installed a omnidirectional one in my house for him to get a good reception.. Hes mostly playing on-line games and checking his email and the stock market.
jloughry 13y ago
Some time ago I made a second SSID on my wireless router and gave it this standard name: https://openwireless.org/ https://openwireless.org/ Unfortunately, I've never noticed anyone using it. Anecdotally, however, take this as one data point that I've never had a problem with bandwidth hogs. It sure comes in handy when guests come over---there's no password to explain. I wish more people would do what you did.

chimeracoder 13y ago

> What if, when you were up at a ridiculous hour Skyping your relatives in Australia, you could borrow unused bandwidth from your sleeping neighbors to make your own broadband connection faster and stronger? Maybe this makes sense if you're lucky enough to have FiOS (which gives you a dedicated line). For me (a Time Warner customer), this is already the case. Except, it's not "borrowing" so much as it is "stealing". Technically, I should have 2.5MB/s down (20Mb/s is what I pay for), but in reality, I'm often lucky to get 1MB/s, because my neighbors are using the Internet and watching Netflix, etc. And I have never observed more than 2.5MB/s, so it doesn't average out. Theoretically, this should already be illegal, but it's still very common in practice. For this inconsistent connection (and no other services!), I am forced to pay over $50/month. Edit: Updated - I pay for 20Mb/s, not 15Mb/s.

sliverstorm 13y ago
Your neighbors aren't stealing from you, your ISP over allocated your trunk.
mrkickling 13y ago
15Mb/s=1.875MB/s.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
vr000m 13y ago
Get one of samknows boxes[1] to measure your broadband. It is like a bandwidth test but mainly measures when you are not using your home network, i.e., it senses for traffic before making measurements. You'll be able to see a historic graph of the available bandwidth, average RTT (to some popular sites) and losses (if any), DNS response times, etc. They run some of the above tests once every hour. The good thing with this initiative is it attempts to build an IETF standard [2] that can be incorporated by all ISPs to make sure that their deployed network is performant. [1] http://www.samknows.com/broadband/ http://www.samknows.com/broadband/ [2] https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/lmap/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/lmap/
tssva 13y ago

pmorici 13y ago

Sounds like a slight twist on Fon[0] The problem for things like this is it is only really useful if it is ubiquitous in your area hopefully they have a plan to kickstart adoption otherwise who cares. [0] https://corp.fon.com/en https://corp.fon.com/en

kaoD 13y ago
In Spain is customary for ISPs to provide routers to their customers. They'll just have to install their custom firmware (which I think they do already) and get the customer to opt-in (or not opt-out, given recent trends). It's easier to take your customers to opt-in if you're a huge company like Telefónica.

crazygringo 13y ago

Using the example in the article, how is it technically possible for me to Skype with someone, while dividing the stream between two IP addresses (of the two different routers)? I mean, Skype's going to be sending my conversational partner's audio to a single IP address that represents me, no? How could that be divided among multiple people's bandwidth, technically speaking?

dangrossman 13y ago
It probably doesn't. It can still take advantage of the pooling by, for example, routing your Skype call through your neighbor's connection because yours is already busy streaming Netflix in another room. My concern would be my neighbor downloading movie torrents on my connection while I'm asleep. We'd need a really strong legal precedent that the person paying for the connection isn't responsible for what others do on it before this kind of thing could catch on in most countries.
- mbreese 13y ago
  If it's done by routing, then potentially, the final IP address would still be that of your torrent downloading neighbor. But, the devil's in the details.
  - andreasvc 13y ago
    No, you typically get one publicly routed IP address from your ISP. The local IP address that initiated the connection is not visible to the internet from behind NAT.
    - mbreese 13y ago
      But it could be conceivable that your public IP is being routed through some one else's public IP/mesh router. I'm not sure how the actual packet flow in this case works, and with a mesh it's unclear how the packets get back to the original router. Everyone can't just be connection g to the same wireless ssid or you wouldn't be able to avoid local faults. So, the mesh would likely be able to distinguish which packets came from which subscriber. Again though, without knowing more about the protocol/mesh they are using, it would be impossible to know.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

vr000m 13y ago

MPTCP and MPRTP to the rescue... these also have inbuilt algorithms to pick the best interface. http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-singh-avtcore-mprtp http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-singh-avtcore-mprtp (for skype and multimedia) https://tools.ietf.org/wg/mptcp/ https://tools.ietf.org/wg/mptcp/ (for everything else, even Siri)

windexh8er 13y ago
It was interesting to see everyone rage about how amazing Apple was to be leveraging MPTCP in the latest version of iOS. However most don't realize the implications and risks that these types of things bring to generalized use cases and operational models of networking and paid for data buckets. Regardless it looks like these guys are just taking the Commotion firmware and re-branding it as a service. It also doesn't solve the local node problem. Most people don't understand how cable (HFC), fiber and copper (DSL) are built out to the neighborhood or 'node'. It's all oversubscribed and shared. So this type of solution really does nothing for the local congestion in a node. To me, this is a pure marketing gimmick.
- vr000m 13y ago
  At the networking stack level, it depends on how one implements congestion control. AFAIR, in the case of Apple/MPTCP: they were sending the same packet on both the interfaces and hoping for the best delay (a really bad idea) unless you are in a managed network else you are just creating unnecessary congestion. OTOH, if the last mile is oversubscribed, there is very little one can do.

bladedtoys 13y ago

Telefonica is also an isp. Or more exactly it is the isp in Spain: it owns the wires and has overwhelming dominance in the market. So (@dangrossman) the legal issue is averted: both costumers are in the same isp which, to them, works like a black box. So the article's use of the word "steal" is quite nonsensical. Also remarkable is the advanced anticipation of demand. For example, Netflix is not even available in Spain and bandwidth demand is currently low compared to say the US. My guess is that it is not to facilitate video over the internet etc. but that it is a cheap way to undercut competition from Vodfone and Orange (other Spanish providers). Bandwidth sharing might mean more consistent high bandwidth for those who need it. Actually the potential issue is inverted: you may not be able not opt out of the system. The other potential issue is Telefonica itself. Historically it has been as appalling company to customers. It is possible this is changing but there certainly used to be a long track record of awfulness. Indeed it is my utter shock that Telefonica of all companies on earth would manage to do something of this sort that is compelling me to ramble on like this. If Telefonica is changing, kudos!

manishsharan 13y ago

I thought this was very cool and would be happy to "lend" my neighbor my unused bandwidth but then I thought what if my neighbor is skyping with a cousin in Australia or wherever and this cousin orders his pizza from the same pizzeria where a al-qaeda guys orders his pizza and lo behold I get put on a no-fly list .

quantumpotato_ 13y ago
Well it sounds like "the terrorists" have won the war in your mind. Fearing the state you turn your back on your neighbor.

kirtijthorat 13y ago

Liked it. Very intelligent way to utilize the spare bandwidth. One thing everyone forgets is that we are actually paying for the full-month bandwidth from Cable companies so they shouldn't worry if I use it 24 x 7 x 30 OR my neighbor. As long as there is mechanism to give priority to the owner when he demands the full bandwidth.

zackmorris 13y ago

Maybe a stupid question but - are there regulations ISPs might use against this? I know it's illegal in most places to resell your bandwidth to neighbors and I wouldn't put it past them to equate giving away with selling. I also wonder if HBO and other channels might get overzealous and shut people down for the p2p nature of it. But all that said, this is the obvious future of the web until we have a true, free, ad hoc/distributed network and on some level I can't believe it took this long to get the ball rolling..

hueving 13y ago
Is it actually illegal to resell? I was under the impression that it was just a contractual agreement with the provider not to resell.

S4M 13y ago

So, I could download pedophile pictures with my neighbor's wifi bandwidth?

TheLoneWolfling 13y ago

...So my neighbor decides to download a torrent and all of a sudden I am hit with a lawsuit? Unless this issue can be solved, no thanks.

matthewcford 13y ago

BT already do this in the UK with their infinity routers, they run a separate public channel (BTWiFi), I've got one in my flat right now. Anyone can connect to it for free if you're a BT customer elsewhere or you can pay. It doesn't effect my bandwidth as most plans are unlimited anyway.

ballard 13y ago

This reminds me of Radiuz, but the problem was that it was a double-ended userbase that needed far more press and capital to survive. http://wifinetnews.com/archives/2004/06/radiuz_combines_wpa-enterprise_with_free_access.html http://wifinetnews.com/archives/2004/06/radiuz_combines_wpa-... Perhaps this solves the problem of not having to deliver as much aggregate bandwidth as isolated pipes on a per carrier basis, but cross carriers may or may not go for it, like "roaming."

gootik 13y ago

In an ideal world of BeWifi everyone will be a member and the internet will be shared between all the members. Does this mean if we all downgraded our connections to the basic offering of our choice ISP we could still get a decent connection and in return force ISPs to lower their prices for higher connections? Seems like a never ending cycle.