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This is frighteningly normal. $500,000 won't make prosecutors suddenly interested in veering away from extinguishing people to win. I doubt $500 billion-with-a

by aric 13y ago

This is frighteningly normal. $500,000 won't make prosecutors suddenly interested in veering away from extinguishing people to win. I doubt $500 billion-with-a-B would scratch beyond the surface of flawed architecture. The United States' criminal justice system, as a particular hodgepodge of incentives, disincentives, esoteric proceedings, privileged access, violent sentencing, plea pressure, and power-tripping careerism -- irrespective of cruel laws -- is a deeply failed model in the context of ethics. It's a very 'successful' model in other contexts. Before anyone replies with comparative excuses or appeals to historical precedence, see this. I, too, agree that US "justice" is far more ethical than the "justice" of North Korea and several other fundamentalist countries. Great. I, too, agree that nearly every other nation's justice system is similarly ethically primitive. Rejoice for a second in shared misery.

aragot 13y ago
> billion-with-a-big-B +1 > I, too, agree that nearly every other nation's justice system is ethically primitive. I don't have data about my own country, but I can tell you about fundamental differences between France and Commonwealth law structures: - Lying is only a fault in Commonwealth countries. In France, people are allowed to lie for their own defense and the girlfriend/wife too. It changes heaps. The policeman has to prove the crime, because proving that the person has been inconsistent is such and such answers won't lead anywhere. Of course, like in US, helping the police is a positive point at the trial. The "allowed to lie for your own defense" rule seems heaps more ethical to me, because it's so much more aligned with human's behavior. - In France, you only get convicted for the highest crime and charges don't add up. If you rob a bank, use a gun without license and kill the security guard, you will get convicted for only the worst of those crimes. That also changes everything: Of course in US you use the "sum" system to frame gangsters whose business you didn't succeed to unveil, but it also means that an almost-non-criminal can be thrown for life on a few actions he did to cover a mistake. - In France, you can plead guilty, but the crime still has to be proven, which is different from the Us[1]. I think pleading guilty is a fundamental flaw: Under the excuse of saving public money, the poorest citizen who can't afford the defense to prove their case would bargain for a crime they didn't commit. - In France it's illegal to imply someone is guilty until they were proven guilty. That's what hurt so much the ethics of French people when pictures of DSK in handcuffs were shown before the trial. There are different systems and, as opposed to you, I think there are more ethical rules to be found in each of them. And, yes, flaws too. [1] http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaidoyer_de_marchandage http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaidoyer_de_marchandage Sorry for the French, but the English page of wikipedia doesn't say enough.
- aric 13y ago
  I appreciate the reply. > There are different systems and, as opposed to you, I think there are more ethical rules to be found in each of them. That's not opposed to me. There are different systems, indeed. :) There are positive ethical traits lurking in the corners of even the harshest of places. Focusing on flaws is often seen as excluding or overlooking positives. To the contrary, it's one and the same to me.
- nazka 13y ago
  We can be proud of that. In France we have a great justice. And not only for criminal cases but also in other fields like for instance for the business law. On top of that the Supreme Court of France always has and acts with a sharp ethics definition. > In France it's illegal to imply someone is guilty until they were proven guilty. That's what hurt so much the ethics of French people when pictures of DSK in handcuffs were shown before the trial. Plus you have 2 independent criminal investigations. One against you and one for you. Everything done by the police. Where in the US you have only one Against you and you have to prove that you are innocent by yourself (so by paying private investigators). But if only we would have the spirit of entrepreneurship from the SV. And I am not even talking about the open source, the technologies, or the engineers freedom to innovate: an innovation starting right from the bottom...
  - KaoruAoiShiho 13y ago
    >Plus you have 2 independent criminal investigations. One against you and one for you. Everything done by the police. Where in the US you have only one Against you and you have to prove that you are innocent by yourself (so by paying private investigators). Omg srsly? We need this... right now.
    - Kell 13y ago
      Actually, it's not exactly two investigations. In criminal cases, if you face at least 10 years in jail, the investigation is not headed by the prosecution or the police, it's a special judge, who's actually a sitting independent judge. And his job is to head an investigation, seeking both proofs for you or against you (with the help of the police, who executes his orders and requests), and then presenting everything to the prosecution and the defense lawyers before going into trial. So because his job is not to convict you, like the prosecution, his investigation is actually much more neutral, with some exceptions. It's quite a good system in theory, but it has some quirks.
coldtea 13y ago
>I, too, agree that nearly every other nation's justice system is similarly ethically primitive. Huh? Who said that? There are far better justice systems in some european countries -- and far more pragmatism than puritanism in pursuing the spirit of the law too.

by aric 13y ago

aragot 13y ago

> billion-with-a-big-B +1 > I, too, agree that nearly every other nation's justice system is ethically primitive. I don't have data about my own country, but I can tell you about fundamental differences between France and Commonwealth law structures: - Lying is only a fault in Commonwealth countries. In France, people are allowed to lie for their own defense and the girlfriend/wife too. It changes heaps. The policeman has to prove the crime, because proving that the person has been inconsistent is such and such answers won't lead anywhere. Of course, like in US, helping the police is a positive point at the trial. The "allowed to lie for your own defense" rule seems heaps more ethical to me, because it's so much more aligned with human's behavior. - In France, you only get convicted for the highest crime and charges don't add up. If you rob a bank, use a gun without license and kill the security guard, you will get convicted for only the worst of those crimes. That also changes everything: Of course in US you use the "sum" system to frame gangsters whose business you didn't succeed to unveil, but it also means that an almost-non-criminal can be thrown for life on a few actions he did to cover a mistake. - In France, you can plead guilty, but the crime still has to be proven, which is different from the Us[1]. I think pleading guilty is a fundamental flaw: Under the excuse of saving public money, the poorest citizen who can't afford the defense to prove their case would bargain for a crime they didn't commit. - In France it's illegal to imply someone is guilty until they were proven guilty. That's what hurt so much the ethics of French people when pictures of DSK in handcuffs were shown before the trial. There are different systems and, as opposed to you, I think there are more ethical rules to be found in each of them. And, yes, flaws too. [1] http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaidoyer_de_marchandage http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaidoyer_de_marchandage Sorry for the French, but the English page of wikipedia doesn't say enough.

aric 13y ago
I appreciate the reply. > There are different systems and, as opposed to you, I think there are more ethical rules to be found in each of them. That's not opposed to me. There are different systems, indeed. :) There are positive ethical traits lurking in the corners of even the harshest of places. Focusing on flaws is often seen as excluding or overlooking positives. To the contrary, it's one and the same to me.
nazka 13y ago
We can be proud of that. In France we have a great justice. And not only for criminal cases but also in other fields like for instance for the business law. On top of that the Supreme Court of France always has and acts with a sharp ethics definition. > In France it's illegal to imply someone is guilty until they were proven guilty. That's what hurt so much the ethics of French people when pictures of DSK in handcuffs were shown before the trial. Plus you have 2 independent criminal investigations. One against you and one for you. Everything done by the police. Where in the US you have only one Against you and you have to prove that you are innocent by yourself (so by paying private investigators). But if only we would have the spirit of entrepreneurship from the SV. And I am not even talking about the open source, the technologies, or the engineers freedom to innovate: an innovation starting right from the bottom...
- KaoruAoiShiho 13y ago
  >Plus you have 2 independent criminal investigations. One against you and one for you. Everything done by the police. Where in the US you have only one Against you and you have to prove that you are innocent by yourself (so by paying private investigators). Omg srsly? We need this... right now.
  - Kell 13y ago
    Actually, it's not exactly two investigations. In criminal cases, if you face at least 10 years in jail, the investigation is not headed by the prosecution or the police, it's a special judge, who's actually a sitting independent judge. And his job is to head an investigation, seeking both proofs for you or against you (with the help of the police, who executes his orders and requests), and then presenting everything to the prosecution and the defense lawyers before going into trial. So because his job is not to convict you, like the prosecution, his investigation is actually much more neutral, with some exceptions. It's quite a good system in theory, but it has some quirks.

coldtea 13y ago

>I, too, agree that nearly every other nation's justice system is similarly ethically primitive. Huh? Who said that? There are far better justice systems in some european countries -- and far more pragmatism than puritanism in pursuing the spirit of the law too.