5 ms·

As a physician, and former member of a college staff, I suspect Ms Williams will look back on this bit of writing with a twinge. She had to "listen to the ratt

As a physician, and former member of a college staff, I suspect Ms Williams will look back on this bit of writing with a twinge. She had to "listen to the rattling gasping sound coming from the person two beds down" and to "a schizophrenic person declare, every hour or so, that he had soiled himself". When she is interning for The Congressman, in a policy debate about primary care or mental health, she will value the opportunity to have borne witness to their sufferings. She was asked to recite the presidents in reverse order? You mean the psychiatrist was adapt enough to develop a intellectually appropriate variation on the mini-mental status exam? That sounds like first rate care to me. The men with guns have guns because they're representatives of the state. Yes, ultimately, they exercise the state's monopoly on violence. Which is mostly incidental. We can't arrange special neutered cops for the sensibilities of Ms Williams, and frankly, the psych ward of a downtown hospital is one of the more volatile places in the world. Same for the room/cell, etc, etc. The physical confines are a function of what's safe based on the lowest common denominator in the population: the 6'7" 230 lb schizoaffective linebacker (have met those patients ... do not care to meet again). Her central thesis, that Yale is focused on image, frankly doesn't sound like anything the university is really worried about. No rational administrator would allow image to enter their minds. If anything, that would be antithetical to the image argument. These are people who live their lives by the mantra that they should be prepared for anything they say to be published on the front page of the New York Times. And they're pretty savvy. They know that doing the best for this student, no matter what the blow back, is ultimately the right thing to do. Take care of the patient and the image issue will take care of itself.

supersystem 13y ago
It's not surprising that you manages to justify abuse of power, people in power always do.
throwaway38513 13y ago
How is cutting off a depressed person from the positive factors in their life (future, friends, studies, activities) considered taking care of the patient? Wouldn't you imagine that blowing the floor out from under an elite college student with friends and interests and a future and sending them to a dead-end, alone, in their parents house would make things a great deal worse? If I were considering suicide even with all those positive things in my life, there'd be no consideration necessary when they were taken away. Instead, the knowledge that this could happen just provides pretty damn compelling reason not to seek therapy or even support from friends.
- stephen 13y ago
  > How is cutting off a depressed person from the positive factors in their life (future, friends, studies, activities) considered taking care of the patient? This "positive" environment was an environment where she was suicidal. Objectively, that's not positive. Yes, the author insinuates Yale was positive for her, but she was also cutting herself at the time, so you need to take her assertions with a grain of salt. > pretty damn compelling reason not to seek therapy Are people not reading the article? It has a happy ending. They let her back in. She's healthy now. (Basically; it'll probably be a life-long struggle for her.) The more realistic ending to "not seeking therapy", "not speaking up so I don't get torn away from my awesome positive experience" is that she ends up not making it. That would be a much worse story for the Yale Daily News to run. Also, note that her notion of a support network (the person she texted after cutting herself), was her dorm parent. (Yale uses the fancy term "FroCo"/Freshmen Counselor, but this just some senior who volunteered for free housing, and is no way trained to support/treat suicidal/self-harmful students.) IMO that shows her judgement about a support network is a naive. With her sort of thoughts/condition, her support network can't be solely "friends & family who love me", it needs to include "professionals who can help my psychiatric disorder".
wmt 13y ago
>“Well the truth is,” he says, “we don’t necessarily think you’ll be safer at home. But we just can’t gave you here.” That quote was the central piece of the article, and why she had formed the thesis you're talking about. If get mental health issues, you will be kicked out of the school. I disagree with you that this taking care of the patient.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
WoodenChair 13y ago
"That sounds like first rate care to me." And that's exactly why so many people are increasingly apathetic regarding your profession. To a casual observer, the article reads straight out of the 19th century. I'm glad you're not my physician. PS I think you will look back at this bit of writing with a twinge. I look forward to IBM's Watson turning you into a over glorified rubber stamp.
- diminoten 13y ago
  This is a textbook example of a comment that used to get a user hellbanned on this site. Maybe mine is too, but you said nothing of substance and were a huge asshole to someone trying to contribute insight to a conversation. I realize it's only been an hour at the time I write this, and admins can't be everywhere at once, but when you start snark-quoting someone back at them, you should realize you've been compromised. For fuck's sake, get ahold of yourself.
  - WoodenChair 13y ago
    I actually partially agree with you - in that my comment was heavy handed and overly snarky. I think I rightfully pointed out how ridiculous the original poster's comments were (at least from my perspective, and I believe the point of this site is to express opinions). I think calling someone out for ridiculous opinions does have value, just as you calling me out has value. No need to curse, you made your point. It would've been more powerful without the curses in fact.
- ismarc 13y ago
  You've obviously never had any real interaction with someone in the grip of a mental health emergency. She was put on suicide watch and evaluation, not because it's just fun. She cut the shit out of her leg, to where it bleed through, had repeated, documented thoughts of suicide and then tried to just pretend everything was OK. The first night was emergency care, i.e., make sure she didn't die. The next days were mental health evaluation while making sure she didn't die. You cannot be forcibly admitted in the U.S. she admitted herself. She did not have to stay after the first night, but they will make you think you do because they want you alive and to help you get better. It's not some giant conspiracy to do harm to people. Does mental health services suck pretty much everywhere? Yes. But nothing she went through was inhumane (I've been through similar scenarios in less pleasant medical facilities) and all of it is geared to try and help.
DanBC 13y ago
Her treatment was brutal. I am shocked that you think her treatment as described was in anyway acceptable. A person who self harms and who expresses suicidal ideation, but says that they are not currently suicidal probably wouldn't be detained against their will im the UK. If they were detained they have strong legal protections. Most mental health wards and hospitals are not locked. There are no armed guards. There are no strip searches. There is access to phones and advocacy (a legal right to legal advice) and etc etc.
- rmrfrmrf 13y ago
  You absolutely need to be called on your bullshit. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-25777429 http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/25689065 Both posted this week. Here's the issue: the UK and Europe's mental health programs are so shitty that citizens don't even know that there's a problem. I remember a viral article that went around a year or so ago: "Why French Kids Don't Have ADHD." The article was full of the usual horse shit and, of course, it triggered the usual stimulant witch hunt. Interestingly enough, though, a response came out to that article interviewing a French doctor who basically said that French kids do get ADHD, and that it's under-diagnosed in France because it takes way too long to get treatment and because the French distrust medicine. So unless you think denial is the solution to mental illness, you seriously need to get off your high horse.
  - DanBC 13y ago
    Please edit your post to remove the whitespace in front of the URLs. That will turn them into clickable links.
  - DanBC 13y ago
    Your first post is a link to an artie saying that English mental health care needs to be better. I agree. There are many problems with English MH care. I have no idea why you think that article is relevant to this person's treatment' so perhaps you could explain that? The next article suggests that people in society are stigmatising and need more experience to spot signs of mental health problems. It finishes with an anecdote of a student with depression who isn't thrown out of university and locked away, but who is allowed to continue with their education. I genuinely have no idea why French treatment for ADHD is relevant. I bet ADHD treatment is shitty in a bunch of countries. EDIT: you say that people in the UK are not aware that poor quality of MH treatment. That's not true. People are well aware that there are longer waits in MH treatment and that bad practice happens. Looking at the Cornwall report and Winterborne view we see some shocking abuses. But that's the point - these were shocking. Some of those involved will never work with vulnerable people again. Others are in prison. Everyone accepts that the treatment was not acceptable. The closest thing to the treatment in the original article is detention under section 136; this is the power that police have to take someone who is in a public place to a place of safety. That place of safety is usually a police cell for a maximum of 72 hours. But there are strict legal protections there too.
throwaway09293 13y ago
I've been through your crappy system and first rate care is the last thing I would call it. Do you know what the mental health system taught me? It taught me not to seek help. If you tell the truth, you will be imprisoned and treated like you are not even human anymore. I distinctly remember thinking "I will do whatever it takes, I will say whatever they want to hear, I will tell whatever lie I need to get out of this situation". Talking to a doctor about mental health is the same as talking to the police. They are unlikely to help you, but they can certainly harm you.
mjhoy 13y ago
> Her central thesis, that Yale is focused on image, frankly doesn't sound like anything the university is really worried about. Perhaps. Or perhaps some "savvy", New-York-Times-minding administrator somewhere made a bet -- a bet that was, probably, "rational". They made a bet that a person like Ms. Williams would not write so articulately about her experience. They made a bet that a psychiatrist would not be so honest with her. They made a bet that keeping Ms. Williams around would be more of a liability than sending her away. They took a risk and lost, because Ms. Williams is not just some medical subject; she is a person that others respect, a person that others will listen to. They bet, perhaps rationally, that Ms. Williams would have shut up and gone home.

supersystem 13y ago

It's not surprising that you manages to justify abuse of power, people in power always do.

throwaway38513 13y ago

How is cutting off a depressed person from the positive factors in their life (future, friends, studies, activities) considered taking care of the patient? Wouldn't you imagine that blowing the floor out from under an elite college student with friends and interests and a future and sending them to a dead-end, alone, in their parents house would make things a great deal worse? If I were considering suicide even with all those positive things in my life, there'd be no consideration necessary when they were taken away. Instead, the knowledge that this could happen just provides pretty damn compelling reason not to seek therapy or even support from friends.

stephen 13y ago
> How is cutting off a depressed person from the positive factors in their life (future, friends, studies, activities) considered taking care of the patient? This "positive" environment was an environment where she was suicidal. Objectively, that's not positive. Yes, the author insinuates Yale was positive for her, but she was also cutting herself at the time, so you need to take her assertions with a grain of salt. > pretty damn compelling reason not to seek therapy Are people not reading the article? It has a happy ending. They let her back in. She's healthy now. (Basically; it'll probably be a life-long struggle for her.) The more realistic ending to "not seeking therapy", "not speaking up so I don't get torn away from my awesome positive experience" is that she ends up not making it. That would be a much worse story for the Yale Daily News to run. Also, note that her notion of a support network (the person she texted after cutting herself), was her dorm parent. (Yale uses the fancy term "FroCo"/Freshmen Counselor, but this just some senior who volunteered for free housing, and is no way trained to support/treat suicidal/self-harmful students.) IMO that shows her judgement about a support network is a naive. With her sort of thoughts/condition, her support network can't be solely "friends & family who love me", it needs to include "professionals who can help my psychiatric disorder".

wmt 13y ago

>“Well the truth is,” he says, “we don’t necessarily think you’ll be safer at home. But we just can’t gave you here.” That quote was the central piece of the article, and why she had formed the thesis you're talking about. If get mental health issues, you will be kicked out of the school. I disagree with you that this taking care of the patient.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

WoodenChair 13y ago

"That sounds like first rate care to me." And that's exactly why so many people are increasingly apathetic regarding your profession. To a casual observer, the article reads straight out of the 19th century. I'm glad you're not my physician. PS I think you will look back at this bit of writing with a twinge. I look forward to IBM's Watson turning you into a over glorified rubber stamp.

diminoten 13y ago
This is a textbook example of a comment that used to get a user hellbanned on this site. Maybe mine is too, but you said nothing of substance and were a huge asshole to someone trying to contribute insight to a conversation. I realize it's only been an hour at the time I write this, and admins can't be everywhere at once, but when you start snark-quoting someone back at them, you should realize you've been compromised. For fuck's sake, get ahold of yourself.
- WoodenChair 13y ago
  I actually partially agree with you - in that my comment was heavy handed and overly snarky. I think I rightfully pointed out how ridiculous the original poster's comments were (at least from my perspective, and I believe the point of this site is to express opinions). I think calling someone out for ridiculous opinions does have value, just as you calling me out has value. No need to curse, you made your point. It would've been more powerful without the curses in fact.
ismarc 13y ago
You've obviously never had any real interaction with someone in the grip of a mental health emergency. She was put on suicide watch and evaluation, not because it's just fun. She cut the shit out of her leg, to where it bleed through, had repeated, documented thoughts of suicide and then tried to just pretend everything was OK. The first night was emergency care, i.e., make sure she didn't die. The next days were mental health evaluation while making sure she didn't die. You cannot be forcibly admitted in the U.S. she admitted herself. She did not have to stay after the first night, but they will make you think you do because they want you alive and to help you get better. It's not some giant conspiracy to do harm to people. Does mental health services suck pretty much everywhere? Yes. But nothing she went through was inhumane (I've been through similar scenarios in less pleasant medical facilities) and all of it is geared to try and help.

DanBC 13y ago

Her treatment was brutal. I am shocked that you think her treatment as described was in anyway acceptable. A person who self harms and who expresses suicidal ideation, but says that they are not currently suicidal probably wouldn't be detained against their will im the UK. If they were detained they have strong legal protections. Most mental health wards and hospitals are not locked. There are no armed guards. There are no strip searches. There is access to phones and advocacy (a legal right to legal advice) and etc etc.

rmrfrmrf 13y ago
You absolutely need to be called on your bullshit. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-25777429 http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/25689065 Both posted this week. Here's the issue: the UK and Europe's mental health programs are so shitty that citizens don't even know that there's a problem. I remember a viral article that went around a year or so ago: "Why French Kids Don't Have ADHD." The article was full of the usual horse shit and, of course, it triggered the usual stimulant witch hunt. Interestingly enough, though, a response came out to that article interviewing a French doctor who basically said that French kids do get ADHD, and that it's under-diagnosed in France because it takes way too long to get treatment and because the French distrust medicine. So unless you think denial is the solution to mental illness, you seriously need to get off your high horse.
- DanBC 13y ago
  Please edit your post to remove the whitespace in front of the URLs. That will turn them into clickable links.
- DanBC 13y ago
  Your first post is a link to an artie saying that English mental health care needs to be better. I agree. There are many problems with English MH care. I have no idea why you think that article is relevant to this person's treatment' so perhaps you could explain that? The next article suggests that people in society are stigmatising and need more experience to spot signs of mental health problems. It finishes with an anecdote of a student with depression who isn't thrown out of university and locked away, but who is allowed to continue with their education. I genuinely have no idea why French treatment for ADHD is relevant. I bet ADHD treatment is shitty in a bunch of countries. EDIT: you say that people in the UK are not aware that poor quality of MH treatment. That's not true. People are well aware that there are longer waits in MH treatment and that bad practice happens. Looking at the Cornwall report and Winterborne view we see some shocking abuses. But that's the point - these were shocking. Some of those involved will never work with vulnerable people again. Others are in prison. Everyone accepts that the treatment was not acceptable. The closest thing to the treatment in the original article is detention under section 136; this is the power that police have to take someone who is in a public place to a place of safety. That place of safety is usually a police cell for a maximum of 72 hours. But there are strict legal protections there too.

throwaway09293 13y ago

I've been through your crappy system and first rate care is the last thing I would call it. Do you know what the mental health system taught me? It taught me not to seek help. If you tell the truth, you will be imprisoned and treated like you are not even human anymore. I distinctly remember thinking "I will do whatever it takes, I will say whatever they want to hear, I will tell whatever lie I need to get out of this situation". Talking to a doctor about mental health is the same as talking to the police. They are unlikely to help you, but they can certainly harm you.

mjhoy 13y ago

> Her central thesis, that Yale is focused on image, frankly doesn't sound like anything the university is really worried about. Perhaps. Or perhaps some "savvy", New-York-Times-minding administrator somewhere made a bet -- a bet that was, probably, "rational". They made a bet that a person like Ms. Williams would not write so articulately about her experience. They made a bet that a psychiatrist would not be so honest with her. They made a bet that keeping Ms. Williams around would be more of a liability than sending her away. They took a risk and lost, because Ms. Williams is not just some medical subject; she is a person that others respect, a person that others will listen to. They bet, perhaps rationally, that Ms. Williams would have shut up and gone home.