7 ms·

It's not on the author to say something. There were a handful of other people there who could have spoken up. Please, everyone, if you witness this type of rud

by slewis 13y ago

It's not on the author to say something. There were a handful of other people there who could have spoken up. Please, everyone, if you witness this type of rude behavior, speak up. We are all, male, female, undecided, both etc. responsible for improving treatment of non-males in tech. Take an active role.

meritt 13y ago
I doubt the others noticed the groping but you're absolutely right. People need to stop inappropriate behavior when and where it occurs.
throwawaycoder 13y ago
It's not always easy to know what kind of relationship people are in. That's probably a reason why people tend to wait until it escalates beyond a certain point. If people would interfere too soon, feminists wouldn't be happy either. Because that kind of behavior would imply that women are weak and unable to take care of themselves.
- patrickmay 13y ago
  The average man is five to six inches taller and forty or more pounds heavier than the average woman. Men are also physically stronger pound for pound. I'd rather take a tongue lashing for being an interfering white knight wannabe than not say something and find out that the woman was too uncomfortable, for all the reasons being discussed in this thread, to extricate herself from the person bothering her.
  - throwawaycoder 13y ago
    It sounds to me as if you don't have a lot of experience. Neither have I, but I have met women who flirted with other men so that their boy-friends could get in a fight with them. Or women who would claw your eyes out because you hit their boy-friend, even if the same boy-friend hit them a minute ago. But why do I bother - just go ahead and do what you feel is right. Maybe your feeling for such situations is simply better than that of other people. How many times have you tried to interfere so far?
patrickmay 13y ago
Exactly right. I may have a T-shirt made for the next technical meet up I attend: "I have daughters. I lift weights. I'm watching how you treat women." Okay, so it could use some wordsmithing, but if a few of us were to make it clear that this is an issue and we are willing to do something about it, the gropers might think twice.
- danellis 13y ago
  How would they see it under your armor?
vellum 13y ago
There were a handful of other people there who could have spoken up. If you don't know who any of these people are, or how they know each other, it's hard to tell what's going on. Having said that, I'm all for banning gropers from meetups.
- sliverstorm 13y ago
  This one raises a good point, especially if the girl is halfheartedly trying not to make a big deal of it, as this one described. It might be tough to spot for a crowd of people practically defined by their inability to detect nonverbal social cues.
- king_jester 13y ago
  > If you don't know who any of these people are, or how they know each other, it's hard to tell what's going on. By default, a meetup group of strangers is an environment that should be free of harassment, it is better to speak up and be told that contact is OK than to say nothing and let someone fend for themselves.
  - sliverstorm 13y ago
    So you're going to go butt in on every couple there?
    - UnoriginalGuy 13y ago
      I'm confused too! Are they suggesting that if a husband/wife couple come together and the dude hugs her I should run up, push them apart, and then threaten him for being gropey? Do people on here even leave the house? They've really out of touch with reality.
    - wonderzombie 13y ago
      No, you will ask politely. It's 100% socially acceptable to ask about how people are connected or know each other. If people get weird about it, apologize. "Sorry, I was just worried for a second that you were, like, groping her!" Laugh it off. Women are likely to respect you for the fact that you're even aware that this is a problem.
ameister14 13y ago
I get where you're coming from, but it's been my experience that unless the behavior crosses a significant line, it's best not to intervene without more information.
4bpp 13y ago
Spoken up, or, much more easily and effectively, given the perpetrator nasty looks, not have invited him around the next time, gossipped about him behind his back or whatever else is part of the usual creep treatment. For all the reluctance tech people might have to consciously engage in this sort of herd animal behaviour, it's a component of social interaction that isn't going anywhere anytime soon; if they refuse to deliberately use it in situations to an end they can agree to be good, it will just wind up being used to random ends in ways the people doing it are not even aware of. In addition, this way, the pressure of having to "start a fuss" by lifting something unspoken into the realm of explicit discourse if they don't want a situation that is unpleasant to themselves to continue will be on the people who were at fault to begin with.
sp332 13y ago
I'm not saying the author had a responsibility to fight back, but I'm having a hard time justifying her "right" to not say anything. If she doesn't say that she doesn't like it, the guy has no reason to back off, at all. Not justifying what he did at first, but it would justify everything he did after that.
UnoriginalGuy 13y ago
> Please, everyone, if you witness this type of rude behavior, speak up. We are all, male, female, undecided, both etc. responsible for improving treatment of non-males in tech. Take an active role. How are we meant to know this is "rude behaviour?" unless we are privy to allot of information about their personal lives they could have a previous relationship, could be married, or be hooking up. If I see a guy put his hand around a women I am not going to try to intervene because I don't know the background there. It is just unrealistic to suggest people should do otherwise. Now if she had previously mentioned this behaviour or the individual in a negative way I might say something, but based on the situation (and most situations) that wasn't the case.
- wonderzombie 13y ago
  How about you ask? Start by being polite. "Oh, I haven't been introduced. So how are you two connected?" You'll to have to step out of your comfort zone for this even if it is immediately obvious. And if it's normal, you've lost nothing.
  - Crito 13y ago
    Yeah, I do not feel comfortable doing anything even approaching policing other people's relationships. The most I would feel okay with doing is asking "Is everything okay here?", but even that is quite an ask and I would not consider it unless I noticed that one of the people was visibly upset. Yeah, before you say it, "me feeling uncomfortable" is a pretty selfish excuse for not helping somebody that is feeling a hell of a lot more uncomfortable than I. I'm not going to make excuses for that. I'm just not going to start interrogating people in public about the nature of their relationships.
    - DorintheFlora 13y ago
      If you care: Sometimes, just looking may help. Just don't turn a blind eye to it, which is what most men do in such situations. If the woman feels she has a sympathetic supporter, it is easier to defend herself and if the jerk thinks there is an eyewitness to his assholish behavior, he may tone it down without you needing to say something. I think saying something may be counterproductive (because when accused people are quick to justify, and that makes them LESS likely to back off, not more) but just being aware can sometimes help.

by slewis 13y ago

meritt 13y ago

I doubt the others noticed the groping but you're absolutely right. People need to stop inappropriate behavior when and where it occurs.

throwawaycoder 13y ago

It's not always easy to know what kind of relationship people are in. That's probably a reason why people tend to wait until it escalates beyond a certain point. If people would interfere too soon, feminists wouldn't be happy either. Because that kind of behavior would imply that women are weak and unable to take care of themselves.

patrickmay 13y ago
The average man is five to six inches taller and forty or more pounds heavier than the average woman. Men are also physically stronger pound for pound. I'd rather take a tongue lashing for being an interfering white knight wannabe than not say something and find out that the woman was too uncomfortable, for all the reasons being discussed in this thread, to extricate herself from the person bothering her.
- throwawaycoder 13y ago
  It sounds to me as if you don't have a lot of experience. Neither have I, but I have met women who flirted with other men so that their boy-friends could get in a fight with them. Or women who would claw your eyes out because you hit their boy-friend, even if the same boy-friend hit them a minute ago. But why do I bother - just go ahead and do what you feel is right. Maybe your feeling for such situations is simply better than that of other people. How many times have you tried to interfere so far?

patrickmay 13y ago

Exactly right. I may have a T-shirt made for the next technical meet up I attend: "I have daughters. I lift weights. I'm watching how you treat women." Okay, so it could use some wordsmithing, but if a few of us were to make it clear that this is an issue and we are willing to do something about it, the gropers might think twice.

danellis 13y ago
How would they see it under your armor?

vellum 13y ago

There were a handful of other people there who could have spoken up. If you don't know who any of these people are, or how they know each other, it's hard to tell what's going on. Having said that, I'm all for banning gropers from meetups.

sliverstorm 13y ago
This one raises a good point, especially if the girl is halfheartedly trying not to make a big deal of it, as this one described. It might be tough to spot for a crowd of people practically defined by their inability to detect nonverbal social cues.
king_jester 13y ago
> If you don't know who any of these people are, or how they know each other, it's hard to tell what's going on. By default, a meetup group of strangers is an environment that should be free of harassment, it is better to speak up and be told that contact is OK than to say nothing and let someone fend for themselves.
- sliverstorm 13y ago
  So you're going to go butt in on every couple there?
  - UnoriginalGuy 13y ago
    I'm confused too! Are they suggesting that if a husband/wife couple come together and the dude hugs her I should run up, push them apart, and then threaten him for being gropey? Do people on here even leave the house? They've really out of touch with reality.
  - wonderzombie 13y ago
    No, you will ask politely. It's 100% socially acceptable to ask about how people are connected or know each other. If people get weird about it, apologize. "Sorry, I was just worried for a second that you were, like, groping her!" Laugh it off. Women are likely to respect you for the fact that you're even aware that this is a problem.

ameister14 13y ago

I get where you're coming from, but it's been my experience that unless the behavior crosses a significant line, it's best not to intervene without more information.

4bpp 13y ago

Spoken up, or, much more easily and effectively, given the perpetrator nasty looks, not have invited him around the next time, gossipped about him behind his back or whatever else is part of the usual creep treatment. For all the reluctance tech people might have to consciously engage in this sort of herd animal behaviour, it's a component of social interaction that isn't going anywhere anytime soon; if they refuse to deliberately use it in situations to an end they can agree to be good, it will just wind up being used to random ends in ways the people doing it are not even aware of. In addition, this way, the pressure of having to "start a fuss" by lifting something unspoken into the realm of explicit discourse if they don't want a situation that is unpleasant to themselves to continue will be on the people who were at fault to begin with.

sp332 13y ago

I'm not saying the author had a responsibility to fight back, but I'm having a hard time justifying her "right" to not say anything. If she doesn't say that she doesn't like it, the guy has no reason to back off, at all. Not justifying what he did at first, but it would justify everything he did after that.

UnoriginalGuy 13y ago

> Please, everyone, if you witness this type of rude behavior, speak up. We are all, male, female, undecided, both etc. responsible for improving treatment of non-males in tech. Take an active role. How are we meant to know this is "rude behaviour?" unless we are privy to allot of information about their personal lives they could have a previous relationship, could be married, or be hooking up. If I see a guy put his hand around a women I am not going to try to intervene because I don't know the background there. It is just unrealistic to suggest people should do otherwise. Now if she had previously mentioned this behaviour or the individual in a negative way I might say something, but based on the situation (and most situations) that wasn't the case.

wonderzombie 13y ago
How about you ask? Start by being polite. "Oh, I haven't been introduced. So how are you two connected?" You'll to have to step out of your comfort zone for this even if it is immediately obvious. And if it's normal, you've lost nothing.
- Crito 13y ago
  Yeah, I do not feel comfortable doing anything even approaching policing other people's relationships. The most I would feel okay with doing is asking "Is everything okay here?", but even that is quite an ask and I would not consider it unless I noticed that one of the people was visibly upset. Yeah, before you say it, "me feeling uncomfortable" is a pretty selfish excuse for not helping somebody that is feeling a hell of a lot more uncomfortable than I. I'm not going to make excuses for that. I'm just not going to start interrogating people in public about the nature of their relationships.
  - DorintheFlora 13y ago
    If you care: Sometimes, just looking may help. Just don't turn a blind eye to it, which is what most men do in such situations. If the woman feels she has a sympathetic supporter, it is easier to defend herself and if the jerk thinks there is an eyewitness to his assholish behavior, he may tone it down without you needing to say something. I think saying something may be counterproductive (because when accused people are quick to justify, and that makes them LESS likely to back off, not more) but just being aware can sometimes help.