7 ms·

What exactly do you want her to say? "Hi, stop being a dick, because this kind of behavior is a serious turn off to women who want to be involved in tech?" That

by zasz 13y ago

What exactly do you want her to say? "Hi, stop being a dick, because this kind of behavior is a serious turn off to women who want to be involved in tech?" That's obviously not going to fly. So what about, "Hi, could you not awkwardly hug me?" What people say in response to that is, "Why are you being mean to me? I was just trying to be friendly." It's extremely hard to say something in the moment without getting stereotyped as a frigid bitch.

sliverstorm 13y ago
Not a woman, but perhaps something like "This is much too forward of you", in a disapproving tone. Nothing makes me quickly reconsider my actions like this words, even if it turns out she was kidding. It provides the suggestion that if he proceeded differently, there might be a chance, but if he continues this way there is not. That suggestion might be enough to restore at least a semblance of normal interaction?
- prawn 13y ago
  At the hug, she says "Sorry, we've only just met." And removes herself from it if it lingers. If he makes a joke about getting to know her, she says "That's a bit creepy, aren't we here to talk Bitcoin?" And moves on. At the hand on the thigh, remove it firmly, say with some volume "Please don't put your hand on my leg, it's inappropriate." Then stand up to move seats. If there are no seats, ask "Can someone spare some room down this (other) end of the table?"
- silencio 13y ago
  As a woman, what I hate is when I'm trying to be nice and proper and educational about telling people to back off and they use that as a springboard to go all "who, me?" or maybe "oh, okay" and then assume I'm a frigid bitch anyway instead of recognizing that they're the ones making a big mistake. So nowadays I am of the shove the offending body part off and "get your hands off me" mindset because it doesn't really matter. I don't need to be nice about someone invading my personal space especially if I'm going to be known as a frigid bitch anyway. It's also not my problem to educate that person on basic human interaction no matter who they are and no, I refuse to accept stereotypes as an excuse for what they did. (I would expect no less if I were doing the same to someone else - minus the frigid bitch part.) Regardless, the other problem with confronting something as it happens - that a lot of people here right now don't seem to recognize - is that sometimes you don't even fully realize what's going on until after it's happened or started. Either you're in shock, or you're not noticing how fast something escalated. You also might have no idea what to do because you're worried about the consequences (which range from physical force to losing your job and death threats and "frigid bitch" namecalling). It's not easy. I only wish it were, and I speak from a rather privileged perspective where I work for myself, don't care about what people say about me most of the time, and have a big, tall, hairy fiancé and a big, tall, intimidating roommate to back me up.
  - sliverstorm 13y ago
    I don't need to be nice about someone invading my personal space Yes, I agree. But of course not every woman is willing to be outright confrontational and thus resort to "grin-and-bear-it", which is why I was thinking about other possible avenues based on my experiences receiving blowback. I realize it's a different story actually there in the moment than it is for me, an armchair warrior, but the only ways I know of to get around that are 1) making choices to avoid the situation (which never go over well in discussion) and 2) behavioral changes. I avoid #1, and #2 is not an issue with anyone I have any influence over; everyone I know would immediately ostracize that person if word ever got out. So all I've got left to discuss is possible reactions. :/
    - gnaritas 13y ago
      > But of course not every woman is willing to be outright confrontational True, but men are generally outright confrontational and when dealing with men, speaking their language is likely to lead to them understanding in the moment what just happened.
      - sliverstorm 13y ago
        You are not wrong, but that is not a practical solution if a given women cannot bring herself to implement it.
        gnaritas 13y ago
        Understandable, but meek people get walked on; that's simply how the world works. How it out to work really doesn't matter, practically speaking you must play the cards you're dealt. If a guy hits on a women and she doesn’t like it, she needs to end it somehow, either by leaving, or by confronting.
        sliverstorm 13y ago
        meek people get walked on; that's simply how the world works I agree, and so my personal advice to individuals is to not be meek. But one of the points of civilized society is to defend the meek. So, the two messages (stop being meek for your own sake; we need to defend the meek) are not incompatible.
- zasz 13y ago
  This has happened to me. What I got back was a hurt look with, "I'm just trying to be friendly!" Honestly, what do you say to that? Some guys have a magic talent for turning it around and turning you into a villain for daring to assert your boundaries.
gnaritas 13y ago
I'd think the appropriate response to being groped is to shove the guy out of your personal space and say get your hands off me jerk. His response is irrelevant, groping is not just being friendly. However, admittedly, as a guy maybe I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about.
- snowwrestler 13y ago
  The problem is that she wants to be there, wants to meet all these people, wants to be accepted as a fellow bitcoin enthusiast, wants to make a good impression, wants to maybe make some friends, or maybe just some connections. It's hard to do any of that when 5 minutes in, you're shoving somebody and chastising them publicly. The groper is not going to react well to that. They're not going to think they did anything wrong (if they did, they wouldn't have done it in the first place). So they'll see her as the aggressor and complain loudly.
  - gnaritas 13y ago
    No one should care how the groper responds, after they hear "stop groping me jerk" he's going to be the one shunned, not her. Assholes never think they're wrong; you shouldn't care what they think. It's not at all hard to do any of that if it's clear to people around you who the asshole was. I keep seeing people talk about how the groper is going to react... seriously, who gives a shit how the villain acts, he's the fucking villain in the situation. You may as well point out that a rapist isn't going to react well to being made to stop raping someone; I'm stunned you'd even think this a valid point to make. When people act inappropriately, it's doesn't matter what they think or how they react; they're in the wrong, their feeling are irrelevant. Concern yourself with how the victim feels and stop sympathizing with the groper.
    - snowwrestler 13y ago
      I am explaining how the victim feels. The issue is not the groper, the issue is everyone else, who may or may not react the way you think they should. Look back at the story of the woman who stood up for her feelings at the tech conference by calling out behavior she thought was inappropriate. Some people agreed with her, but others derided and attacked her. Whether one side or the other was more morally correct in your eyes is not the point. The point is that it sucks to be the object of social tension. And it's not really fair for you to define how tolerant other people should be of that pressure.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
rgj 13y ago
The best response is to say something that makes him feel embarassed. Like "wow. This must be a big day for you. You don't get to touch a woman very often, do you?". Loud enough, of course.
pstack 13y ago
I know that, without reservation, my fiance would respond to such a situation with a "dude, what the fuck?! Get off me!" rather than demurely accepting the situation and biting her tongue until she could get home and blog about it. Don't characterize my statement to be blaming the person who was "victim" here. I'm just reiterating that the original poster is not being unreasonable to suggest such a response might have been appropriate and even expected. Given the circumstances, I'm actually somewhat baffled as to why it did not happen. The person was at local meeting with other people and her male friend. She wasn't some lone girl on a subway train packed to the gills where some vile beast was surreptitiously pawing at her. She certainly isn't obligated to say or do anything, but suggesting she or questioning why she didn't is an entirely rational way to follow up to hearing a story like this.
throwawaycoder 13y ago
So you'd worry about hurting the feelings of somebody who just overstepped into your private space? Doesn't make sense. Why not just say "hands off" or whatever, no need to back it up with an elaborate theory.

by zasz 13y ago

sliverstorm 13y ago

Not a woman, but perhaps something like "This is much too forward of you", in a disapproving tone. Nothing makes me quickly reconsider my actions like this words, even if it turns out she was kidding. It provides the suggestion that if he proceeded differently, there might be a chance, but if he continues this way there is not. That suggestion might be enough to restore at least a semblance of normal interaction?

prawn 13y ago
At the hug, she says "Sorry, we've only just met." And removes herself from it if it lingers. If he makes a joke about getting to know her, she says "That's a bit creepy, aren't we here to talk Bitcoin?" And moves on. At the hand on the thigh, remove it firmly, say with some volume "Please don't put your hand on my leg, it's inappropriate." Then stand up to move seats. If there are no seats, ask "Can someone spare some room down this (other) end of the table?"
silencio 13y ago
As a woman, what I hate is when I'm trying to be nice and proper and educational about telling people to back off and they use that as a springboard to go all "who, me?" or maybe "oh, okay" and then assume I'm a frigid bitch anyway instead of recognizing that they're the ones making a big mistake. So nowadays I am of the shove the offending body part off and "get your hands off me" mindset because it doesn't really matter. I don't need to be nice about someone invading my personal space especially if I'm going to be known as a frigid bitch anyway. It's also not my problem to educate that person on basic human interaction no matter who they are and no, I refuse to accept stereotypes as an excuse for what they did. (I would expect no less if I were doing the same to someone else - minus the frigid bitch part.) Regardless, the other problem with confronting something as it happens - that a lot of people here right now don't seem to recognize - is that sometimes you don't even fully realize what's going on until after it's happened or started. Either you're in shock, or you're not noticing how fast something escalated. You also might have no idea what to do because you're worried about the consequences (which range from physical force to losing your job and death threats and "frigid bitch" namecalling). It's not easy. I only wish it were, and I speak from a rather privileged perspective where I work for myself, don't care about what people say about me most of the time, and have a big, tall, hairy fiancé and a big, tall, intimidating roommate to back me up.
- sliverstorm 13y ago
  I don't need to be nice about someone invading my personal space Yes, I agree. But of course not every woman is willing to be outright confrontational and thus resort to "grin-and-bear-it", which is why I was thinking about other possible avenues based on my experiences receiving blowback. I realize it's a different story actually there in the moment than it is for me, an armchair warrior, but the only ways I know of to get around that are 1) making choices to avoid the situation (which never go over well in discussion) and 2) behavioral changes. I avoid #1, and #2 is not an issue with anyone I have any influence over; everyone I know would immediately ostracize that person if word ever got out. So all I've got left to discuss is possible reactions. :/
  - gnaritas 13y ago
    > But of course not every woman is willing to be outright confrontational True, but men are generally outright confrontational and when dealing with men, speaking their language is likely to lead to them understanding in the moment what just happened.
    - sliverstorm 13y ago
      You are not wrong, but that is not a practical solution if a given women cannot bring herself to implement it.
      - gnaritas 13y ago
        Understandable, but meek people get walked on; that's simply how the world works. How it out to work really doesn't matter, practically speaking you must play the cards you're dealt. If a guy hits on a women and she doesn’t like it, she needs to end it somehow, either by leaving, or by confronting.
        sliverstorm 13y ago
        meek people get walked on; that's simply how the world works I agree, and so my personal advice to individuals is to not be meek. But one of the points of civilized society is to defend the meek. So, the two messages (stop being meek for your own sake; we need to defend the meek) are not incompatible.
zasz 13y ago
This has happened to me. What I got back was a hurt look with, "I'm just trying to be friendly!" Honestly, what do you say to that? Some guys have a magic talent for turning it around and turning you into a villain for daring to assert your boundaries.

gnaritas 13y ago

I'd think the appropriate response to being groped is to shove the guy out of your personal space and say get your hands off me jerk. His response is irrelevant, groping is not just being friendly. However, admittedly, as a guy maybe I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about.

snowwrestler 13y ago
The problem is that she wants to be there, wants to meet all these people, wants to be accepted as a fellow bitcoin enthusiast, wants to make a good impression, wants to maybe make some friends, or maybe just some connections. It's hard to do any of that when 5 minutes in, you're shoving somebody and chastising them publicly. The groper is not going to react well to that. They're not going to think they did anything wrong (if they did, they wouldn't have done it in the first place). So they'll see her as the aggressor and complain loudly.
- gnaritas 13y ago
  No one should care how the groper responds, after they hear "stop groping me jerk" he's going to be the one shunned, not her. Assholes never think they're wrong; you shouldn't care what they think. It's not at all hard to do any of that if it's clear to people around you who the asshole was. I keep seeing people talk about how the groper is going to react... seriously, who gives a shit how the villain acts, he's the fucking villain in the situation. You may as well point out that a rapist isn't going to react well to being made to stop raping someone; I'm stunned you'd even think this a valid point to make. When people act inappropriately, it's doesn't matter what they think or how they react; they're in the wrong, their feeling are irrelevant. Concern yourself with how the victim feels and stop sympathizing with the groper.
  - snowwrestler 13y ago
    I am explaining how the victim feels. The issue is not the groper, the issue is everyone else, who may or may not react the way you think they should. Look back at the story of the woman who stood up for her feelings at the tech conference by calling out behavior she thought was inappropriate. Some people agreed with her, but others derided and attacked her. Whether one side or the other was more morally correct in your eyes is not the point. The point is that it sucks to be the object of social tension. And it's not really fair for you to define how tolerant other people should be of that pressure.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

rgj 13y ago

The best response is to say something that makes him feel embarassed. Like "wow. This must be a big day for you. You don't get to touch a woman very often, do you?". Loud enough, of course.

pstack 13y ago

I know that, without reservation, my fiance would respond to such a situation with a "dude, what the fuck?! Get off me!" rather than demurely accepting the situation and biting her tongue until she could get home and blog about it. Don't characterize my statement to be blaming the person who was "victim" here. I'm just reiterating that the original poster is not being unreasonable to suggest such a response might have been appropriate and even expected. Given the circumstances, I'm actually somewhat baffled as to why it did not happen. The person was at local meeting with other people and her male friend. She wasn't some lone girl on a subway train packed to the gills where some vile beast was surreptitiously pawing at her. She certainly isn't obligated to say or do anything, but suggesting she or questioning why she didn't is an entirely rational way to follow up to hearing a story like this.

throwawaycoder 13y ago

So you'd worry about hurting the feelings of somebody who just overstepped into your private space? Doesn't make sense. Why not just say "hands off" or whatever, no need to back it up with an elaborate theory.