7 ms·

I don't know. Doing that would probably, consciously or not, forever put the author down in the other attendees' "difficult to deal with; better to stay clear o

by 4bpp 13y ago

I don't know. Doing that would probably, consciously or not, forever put the author down in the other attendees' "difficult to deal with; better to stay clear of in the future" list. On the other hand, chances are the social repercussions the groper will suffer for his actions will be minimal regardless of whether he is called out or not. There is a lot the unmentioned presumable majority of perfectly reasonable guys at that meeting could have done to make the few bad apples feel excluded and uncomfortable in a way which would far surpass any explicit callout by anyone in its effectivity, but unfortunately, in practice, most people are very reluctant to use social signalling in any rational or deliberate way.

meritt 13y ago
I hope we're intelligent enough to differentiate between "unwelcome physical groping" and "overheard some guys make private a joke about 'dongles' and overreacted" but you do bring up a valid point certainly. I guess I just get tired of people in general who complain about things and never take action to remedy it, then go back and garner support by preaching to the choir. I'm absolutely aghast that it happened to her but I just wish people would start being as vocal in person as they can be on their blogs.
- 4bpp 13y ago
  Yes, the "dongles" story is not really comparable to this and I don't see any agenda I would consider desirable being served by conflating the two. While the old "would you find this okay if the genders were reversed" benchmark seems insufficient to me, a stronger version along the lines of "would you find this okay for every possible assignment of genders to the people involved" both clearly distinguishes the two and preempts the "I'm sure every man would be happy to be groped by random women!" defense one hears all too often in the case of situations such as this one.
- scott_s 13y ago
  I think you are not acknowledging the difficulty of calling someone out on the spot. It is awkward, and puts a complete stop to the actual, desired activity. It also puts the victim through two unwanted situations. As others have also said, people in such situations are sometimes so surprised by the infraction that they are stunned, and at a loss for how to react. It may take them time after the event to process what happened and determine how they feel. The reason that others in the thread have brought up blaming the victim is that you have not acknowledged these aspects of the situation.
  - ossreality 13y ago
    Ding ding ding. You just walked into a huge room of strangers, were hugged, were groped and are probably feeling VERY anxious and uncomfortable. And I'm supposed to what? Cause a scene and now have ALL of the attention of a room full of guys on me? Etc. Empathy, again, reigns. Imagine yourself in this situation, people. If "empathy" is so hard, imagine yourself in a room of gay guys who are there to have a book club and then one starts touching you. /shrug

by 4bpp 13y ago

meritt 13y ago

I hope we're intelligent enough to differentiate between "unwelcome physical groping" and "overheard some guys make private a joke about 'dongles' and overreacted" but you do bring up a valid point certainly. I guess I just get tired of people in general who complain about things and never take action to remedy it, then go back and garner support by preaching to the choir. I'm absolutely aghast that it happened to her but I just wish people would start being as vocal in person as they can be on their blogs.

4bpp 13y ago
Yes, the "dongles" story is not really comparable to this and I don't see any agenda I would consider desirable being served by conflating the two. While the old "would you find this okay if the genders were reversed" benchmark seems insufficient to me, a stronger version along the lines of "would you find this okay for every possible assignment of genders to the people involved" both clearly distinguishes the two and preempts the "I'm sure every man would be happy to be groped by random women!" defense one hears all too often in the case of situations such as this one.
scott_s 13y ago
I think you are not acknowledging the difficulty of calling someone out on the spot. It is awkward, and puts a complete stop to the actual, desired activity. It also puts the victim through two unwanted situations. As others have also said, people in such situations are sometimes so surprised by the infraction that they are stunned, and at a loss for how to react. It may take them time after the event to process what happened and determine how they feel. The reason that others in the thread have brought up blaming the victim is that you have not acknowledged these aspects of the situation.
- ossreality 13y ago
  Ding ding ding. You just walked into a huge room of strangers, were hugged, were groped and are probably feeling VERY anxious and uncomfortable. And I'm supposed to what? Cause a scene and now have ALL of the attention of a room full of guys on me? Etc. Empathy, again, reigns. Imagine yourself in this situation, people. If "empathy" is so hard, imagine yourself in a room of gay guys who are there to have a book club and then one starts touching you. /shrug