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> In my mind, it’s a little preposterous that if I want to do so, however, I have to be ok with being felt up and indirectly insulted. To the author: You're ri

• kevingadd 13y ago
  Someone with such a messed up perception of personal boundaries and acceptable behavior that they would FEEL UP SOMEONE IN PUBLIC is not necessarily going to stop just because you tell them. They might get more aggressive.
  • BlackDeath3 13y ago
    Perhaps this is where self-defense comes into play? If your options are 1) say something and make the aggressor more aggressive, or 2) distance yourself and hope they don't press the situation further, at some point you should have a backup plan.
    • DanBC 13y ago
      So, the woman is dumb for leaving the home without having a plan to deal with people who physically assualt her in a public space? Is that what you're saying?
      • BlackDeath3 13y ago
        I don't think I actually said that, so I'm not sure where the hostility comes from, but... maybe? Sure, she shouldn't have to be competent at self-defense just to leave the house and meet-up with some fellow Bitcoiners (or any other hobbyists), but I think that if you don't have some sort of backup plan, you're basically at the will of whatever you meet along the way. It seems that you disagree. Care to talk about it (civilly)?
        • DanBC 13y ago
          Other people came to a similar conusion to me. So, being charitable, your post wasn't as clear as it could be. That's me being civil. If you agree that I misread your post you can stop reading here because the rest of this post is less civil and not relevant. On the other hand maybe you really do think that women should learn self defence or somesuch because they could be the victims of violent crime. Except this wasn't some mugger trying to rob her. The appropriate response is not to say "that sucks, but it would have sucked less if you learnt self defence". The appropriate response is to say "that sucked, and it sucked that noone steps up to tell him he was wrong". People blame the victims of crime all the time and it fucking sucks. "Contributory Negligence" (Attila the Stockbroker) was written in 1985. It's baffling why people still think that when a woman is groped in public it's somehow up to her to have a backup plan, with everyone else there getting a pass to just ignore it. The really fucking baffling thing is that these abhorant views ("she deserved it") aren't going away. http://www.newstatesman.com/glosswitch/2013/09/there-no-great-stigma-attached-being-rapist http://www.newstatesman.com/glosswitch/2013/09/there-no-grea...
          • BlackDeath3 13y ago
            Well, people love a good disagreement, don't they? Do I think that people should learn self-defense because they could be victims of violent crime? That's one reason to do so, yes. As women tend to be a particularly vulnerable subset of "people", this applies to them in particular. What does it matter if this scenario was not that of a particular type of violent crime? I don't see where you're going with the mugging comparison. Violent crime is violent crime. That I didn't immediately chastise the aggressor doesn't mean that I don't blame the aggressor, but the fact is (and I've said this in another comment) if you cannot defend yourself, you are at the mercy of forces beyond your control. This is not a life philosophy or a political position, but a piece of advice based on fact of reality. Call it "victim blaming" if you want to (and I know that you do), I call it living in the real world. If I'm caught in a mugging, it isn't necessarily my fault (even if I could have taken steps to prevent such a situation) and I probably didn't choose to get mugged, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't have some sort of self-defense plan in-place to mitigate risk. This isn't about right and wrong. This is about surviving in a world that many of us forget is still very often hostile to our existence.
    • king_jester 13y ago
      Why is that women have to prepare themselves to deal with aggressive behavior and/or pretend nothing happened and hope someone doesn't violate their personal space again? That squarely puts the blame on women for the harassing behavior of others and makes it their problem, when the reality is that the problem is with the harasser and people need to speak up.
      • BlackDeath3 13y ago
        You're reading too much into what I'm saying. I didn't say that this is the woman's fault. I didn't say that the man is blameless. I said that if you cannot defend yourself, you are at the mercy of forces beyond your control. Period. This isn't a life philosophy or a political position, this is a fact of reality. In an ideal world, she wouldn't have to worry about defending herself, but we aren't living in CandyLand. If you cannot rely on yourself, who can you rely on?
    • AnimalMuppet 13y ago
      She shouldn't need self-defense. I'm a male, pretty scrawny, middle aged. But if I'm in a group of men, and a female comes by, and one of the men is groping her, and she tells him to back off, and he won't, I'm going to get in his grill. (Think of it as self-policing for the male community.) I strongly suspect that I won't be alone, but if I am, I'll do it alone. My mother got a master's degree in math in the 1950s. She had to put up with a professor telling her that women don't belong in math. No woman should have to put up with that crap in 2014.
      • BlackDeath3 13y ago
        >She shouldn't need self-defense I agree that she shouldn't have to worry about this sort of situation, but that doesn't mean that she doesn't need to worry about it.
  • genericuser 13y ago
    They 'might' do just about anything if you tell them to stop. (including stop) The point is if you don't try, they have already shown what they plan to do. And in a group of people with two people you know some of the risk is mitigated. Now I think she handled a bad situation quite politely, and she has no obligation to put effort into making that particular situation better. However I believe that in making the blog post she is showing herself to be a person who both wants to and is brave enough to make the situation better. But as mentioned by the gp the people who read these types of blog posts are largely the type of people who believe we should treat everyone like a person. As such helping out further by informing the person or group of people of their unwelcome and in this case inappropriate behavior could further that goal of improving the situation for everyone. Edit: I am a privileged white male who realizes I might have huge misconceptions about what it is exactly like to live as one who is treated with less privilege, so would welcome criticism of my view point. So if my above comment smacks of 'of course you think that you've never had to deal with....' I would like to know.
    • kevingadd 13y ago
      Unfortunately many women simply don't feel safe enough to fight back and instead will remove themselves from a situation like that. If the space itself feels unsafe (instead of it just being a 'bad person in a good place' situation), that's going to make it seem like a much better idea to leave. After all, it's not as if these are unusual occurrences. They're all too common.
    • tommorris 13y ago
      This whole HN thread has been a huge volley of victim blaming. It's quite disappointing but not at all surprising. Last year, I was on a train back to visit my parents place—a little village in quiet commuter-land suburbia. It was late. I had drunk a small amount before getting on the train but wasn't drunk. A tall drunk man started shouting at me about how he wanted me to suck his dick. I obviously didn't do a good enough impression of a disgusted homophobe by shouting "eww, no". He twigged that I was actually gay and started shouting abuse at me. He was there with a friend who was leering and laughing along. There were no third parties in the nearby vicinity. So, what did I do? I let the abuse continue and didn't put up a fight. I was surprised this was happening - these were grown men, this was a train line going mostly out to quiet middle-class suburbia. There were two of them and one of me—they were bigger and stronger while I have the body of a lifelong sedentary computer programmer; if there were a physical altercation, I'd come out worse for it. I don't want to end up in the emergency room. Should I have stood up to them and told them to stop? To give as good as I get? Yes. It might stop them next time. I certainly want to make the situation better. But in the moment when you are being picked on and attacked, the calculation you make isn't the same calculation you'd make after the event. The flipside is I have seen other examples of homophobic abuse of others and been ready and prepared to step in (hasn't been needed). There's a sort of frozen moment of panic when you are abused. I've had friends who have had very bad sexist abuse who have said the same thing. I have one friend who is trans and a sexual abuse survivior who goes through far more abuse and manage to stand up to it and live their life. I have great admiration for them, but I don't think it is anyone's job to go around policing the reactions of victims when faced with discrimination and abuse.
• ossreality 13y ago
  Easier said than done. I've been "out" for years and despite being opinionated and a "proud" person, I still find it extremely hard to put my neck out there and call others out (and interesting, it's much easier for me to stand up for female friends than it is to stand up for myself or other LGBT-specifically related issues). It's hard enough to do, at all, to confront someone. But it's another thing when you've just been thrown completely off-kilter by having a stranger inappropriately groping you in public (Plus, you think he's going to have a positive reaction to her chiding him? Somehow I doubt it.). I'll give her a pass on not reprimanding him. (Plus, your post has the distinct scent of victim blaming)
  • meritt 13y ago
    Of course the asshole wouldn't have a positive reaction. That's precisely the point: Make it known how inappropriate and unacceptable their actions were. Make them uncomfortable. Victim blaming? Dare I even respond to that? That would imply I'm somehow suggesting the author was at fault or responsible for the action occurring, or that it was somehow acceptable because she didn't react then on the spot. Not in the slightest.
    • ljf 13y ago
      Sorry, but victim blaming is exactly how your original post came across. You might not have meant it that way, but that to me is how it read.
• lincolnq 13y ago
  This is a great point, but it's hard to be confrontational in a place where you're already worried about your social standing. I agree that things would change faster if people were more confrontational but it's kind of a lot to ask. Posting a blog post about it (and one that's well-written, with good examples and explanation) is also a great step forward, and requires substantial courage on its own.
• runjake 13y ago
  I'm really turned off by these posts, too. I roll my eyes and mutter "Christ, not another one". But I'm a male who doesn't have to worry about being groped and I keep my hands to myself. But let me guess how the reality turns out for her: - She says something about it. - The guy who is misbehaving is probably physically bigger than her. She may feel fearful of speaking up. or - She speaks up and gets called a "prude" or, ironically, a "slut". Maybe they'll blame it on her sweater being a little too form-fitting, or a little too low-cut. Then, she follows your advice and posts what happened and the resulting action which results in even more criticism, death and rape threats than the course she actually took here. If you have a young daughter, these are the kinds of issues she'll have to deal with some day. Might as well think about this now.
  • blairbeckwith 13y ago
    disclaimer: I'm on her side. I've never really understood the potential-physical-confrontation argument. It must be a very, very small minority of men who's first reaction to being embarrassed and shamed by a woman is to physically assault her in public?
    • runjake 13y ago
      I am not a woman. I am a large, muscular male who doesn't get bothered by anyone. But it doesn't have to lead to actual physical assault to be uncomfortable or cause negative lasting effects in one's life. The intimidation, the mental abuse aspect of it is enough. If you've been mugged without being shot, it might make a little more sense to you. And really, he put his hands on her inappropriately, so he's already committed physical assault -- not to get all bleeding-heart emo feminist or anything. But that just ain't right.
      • rfnslyr 13y ago
        Funny how far removed real problems are from our society. "The intimidation, the mental abuse aspect of it is enough." versus Collecting wood in a forest 40km away so you can stoke a fire and your family can eat. Tell the guy to get his hands off you, grab a seat, introduce yourself. Everyone needs an emotional baby sitter and therapist nowadays.
• 4bpp 13y ago
  I don't know. Doing that would probably, consciously or not, forever put the author down in the other attendees' "difficult to deal with; better to stay clear of in the future" list. On the other hand, chances are the social repercussions the groper will suffer for his actions will be minimal regardless of whether he is called out or not. There is a lot the unmentioned presumable majority of perfectly reasonable guys at that meeting could have done to make the few bad apples feel excluded and uncomfortable in a way which would far surpass any explicit callout by anyone in its effectivity, but unfortunately, in practice, most people are very reluctant to use social signalling in any rational or deliberate way.
  • meritt 13y ago
    I hope we're intelligent enough to differentiate between "unwelcome physical groping" and "overheard some guys make private a joke about 'dongles' and overreacted" but you do bring up a valid point certainly. I guess I just get tired of people in general who complain about things and never take action to remedy it, then go back and garner support by preaching to the choir. I'm absolutely aghast that it happened to her but I just wish people would start being as vocal in person as they can be on their blogs.
    • 4bpp 13y ago
      Yes, the "dongles" story is not really comparable to this and I don't see any agenda I would consider desirable being served by conflating the two. While the old "would you find this okay if the genders were reversed" benchmark seems insufficient to me, a stronger version along the lines of "would you find this okay for every possible assignment of genders to the people involved" both clearly distinguishes the two and preempts the "I'm sure every man would be happy to be groped by random women!" defense one hears all too often in the case of situations such as this one.
    • scott_s 13y ago
      I think you are not acknowledging the difficulty of calling someone out on the spot. It is awkward, and puts a complete stop to the actual, desired activity. It also puts the victim through two unwanted situations. As others have also said, people in such situations are sometimes so surprised by the infraction that they are stunned, and at a loss for how to react. It may take them time after the event to process what happened and determine how they feel. The reason that others in the thread have brought up blaming the victim is that you have not acknowledged these aspects of the situation.
• zasz 13y ago
  What exactly do you want her to say? "Hi, stop being a dick, because this kind of behavior is a serious turn off to women who want to be involved in tech?" That's obviously not going to fly. So what about, "Hi, could you not awkwardly hug me?" What people say in response to that is, "Why are you being mean to me? I was just trying to be friendly." It's extremely hard to say something in the moment without getting stereotyped as a frigid bitch.
  • sliverstorm 13y ago
    Not a woman, but perhaps something like "This is much too forward of you", in a disapproving tone. Nothing makes me quickly reconsider my actions like this words, even if it turns out she was kidding. It provides the suggestion that if he proceeded differently, there might be a chance, but if he continues this way there is not. That suggestion might be enough to restore at least a semblance of normal interaction?
    • prawn 13y ago
      At the hug, she says "Sorry, we've only just met." And removes herself from it if it lingers. If he makes a joke about getting to know her, she says "That's a bit creepy, aren't we here to talk Bitcoin?" And moves on. At the hand on the thigh, remove it firmly, say with some volume "Please don't put your hand on my leg, it's inappropriate." Then stand up to move seats. If there are no seats, ask "Can someone spare some room down this (other) end of the table?"
    • silencio 13y ago
      As a woman, what I hate is when I'm trying to be nice and proper and educational about telling people to back off and they use that as a springboard to go all "who, me?" or maybe "oh, okay" and then assume I'm a frigid bitch anyway instead of recognizing that they're the ones making a big mistake. So nowadays I am of the shove the offending body part off and "get your hands off me" mindset because it doesn't really matter. I don't need to be nice about someone invading my personal space especially if I'm going to be known as a frigid bitch anyway. It's also not my problem to educate that person on basic human interaction no matter who they are and no, I refuse to accept stereotypes as an excuse for what they did. (I would expect no less if I were doing the same to someone else - minus the frigid bitch part.) Regardless, the other problem with confronting something as it happens - that a lot of people here right now don't seem to recognize - is that sometimes you don't even fully realize what's going on until after it's happened or started. Either you're in shock, or you're not noticing how fast something escalated. You also might have no idea what to do because you're worried about the consequences (which range from physical force to losing your job and death threats and "frigid bitch" namecalling). It's not easy. I only wish it were, and I speak from a rather privileged perspective where I work for myself, don't care about what people say about me most of the time, and have a big, tall, hairy fiancé and a big, tall, intimidating roommate to back me up.
• slewis 13y ago
  It's not on the author to say something. There were a handful of other people there who could have spoken up. Please, everyone, if you witness this type of rude behavior, speak up. We are all, male, female, undecided, both etc. responsible for improving treatment of non-males in tech. Take an active role.
  • meritt 13y ago
    I doubt the others noticed the groping but you're absolutely right. People need to stop inappropriate behavior when and where it occurs.
  • throwawaycoder 13y ago
    It's not always easy to know what kind of relationship people are in. That's probably a reason why people tend to wait until it escalates beyond a certain point. If people would interfere too soon, feminists wouldn't be happy either. Because that kind of behavior would imply that women are weak and unable to take care of themselves.
    • patrickmay 13y ago
      The average man is five to six inches taller and forty or more pounds heavier than the average woman. Men are also physically stronger pound for pound. I'd rather take a tongue lashing for being an interfering white knight wannabe than not say something and find out that the woman was too uncomfortable, for all the reasons being discussed in this thread, to extricate herself from the person bothering her.
      • throwawaycoder 13y ago
        It sounds to me as if you don't have a lot of experience. Neither have I, but I have met women who flirted with other men so that their boy-friends could get in a fight with them. Or women who would claw your eyes out because you hit their boy-friend, even if the same boy-friend hit them a minute ago. But why do I bother - just go ahead and do what you feel is right. Maybe your feeling for such situations is simply better than that of other people. How many times have you tried to interfere so far?
• ariannahsimpson 13y ago
  Good comment! I am working on organizing a meetup of my own to counter.
• zeidrich 13y ago
  I think that the point is less to change it than to report on the fact that it's (still) happening. If she just told him off and he avoided her for the rest of the night, but otherwise she still felt as isolated and ogled, how would that change things? If she picked up a megaphone and shouted about how she needed to be treated with more respect, would she be? Or would everyone just think she was looking for attention. The way she conducted herself makes sense to me, and while she was put off by the situation, she still got most of what she wanted to out of it. She didn't go to the bitcoin meetup to make a stand on her rights, she did it to talk about bitcoins. While there, she was put off by the way she was treated. Had she just made a scene about the way she was treated, maybe she wouldn't get to talk about bitcoins, maybe the people there would think "Oh, ok, this makes sense. Women don't really talk about bitcoins, she's not here because she is interested in bitcoins, she's one of those feminists. I get it now." Her blog post is just a way of expressing "Hey, I experienced some uncomfortable situations at a bitcoin meetup because I was one of two women in a sea of men who didn't take me seriously." The thing is, it's not her responsibility to fix it. Sure, there's things that she can do, but when men go to a bitcoin meetup, they don't go there to argue for men's rights, they go to talk about bitcoins. She can't reasonably do both, and the only way women can get into bitcoins is if they talk about bitcoins. If they have to defend their gender position instead, they don't have much opportunity to do that. The way to fix it is to support your female friends who are interested in these things to continue to be interested in them. To go with them, whether you're a guy or a girl yourself, to give them support when they are learning about them. To not make a big deal about the fact that they're a woman and you like these things. Instead spend your time just collaborating on those things that they're interested in. The only real way it will change is when people start to see it as not unusual. The only way for it to become not unusual is for more women in general to get interested. If women are getting turned off these things by weird guys and sexist comments (which come about because culturally not many women participate in these topics), then you can either try and stop every immature guy from saying something sexist about a women who does things that no other women do, or you can support more women when they want to do those things so that can get something out of it even when the weird guys bug them. Maybe with enough women interested it will no longer be something that seems surprising.
  • 13y ago
• hbags 13y ago
  I think it's absolutely disgusting that you criticize the victim for documenting what happened to her. It's despicable and downright fucking evil that you basically accuse her of sharing her story solely because she wants attention. The worst part of your god-awful post is that it's currently pinned to the top of this board. The fact that your disgusting, insensitive post is at the top is why women don't work in tech. They don't want to have to deal with assholes like you who have nothing better to do than say "she should do X instead of sharing her story", or whatever else you want to do to silence her, and shame her for sharing her story. She is brave for doing anything, because she knew the world is full of assholes like you: cowardly bigots who will criticize ANY action she takes. I'm sorry she had a problem. And I'm more sorry that HN has degraded to the point where a cowardly attack from a piece of shit like you is pinned to the top.
  • rosser 13y ago
    All I can think of in response to this diatribe is a line from The Big Lebowski: "You're not wrong, Walter. You're just an asshole." Seriously, dude; chill. You can communicate your (not incorrect) point so very much more effectively without ragefacing all over the person you're replying to. It gets in the way of successful communication, and probably does horrible things for your blood pressure to boot.
    • ZenoArrow 13y ago
      I disagree. Of the comments I've read here so far, I agreed with hbags the most. There are plenty of more measured responses to be found here, but none that captured how I felt as well as hbags. I'm not someone who holds grudges, and I accept we all sometimes say things without understanding what we imply, but in the moment I was glad someone could give voice to how I felt.
    • hbags 13y ago
      I'm not dumb enough to try to change the stripes on a proudly bigoted jerk like Meritt. I just want anybody who sees his spew to know that his opinion is not the only one. I want any human who is harassed to know that if they share their story after the fact, that's good. And they shouldn't worry about the fact that some utterly worthless assholes like Meritt will try to shame them for speaking out. They shouldn't be ashamed if they were too afraid, too shy, or too confused to respond in the moment. It is GOOD that we share these stories. It is GOOD that we move towards a world where these things happen less often. And the utterly worthless assholes like Meritt who want to shame people for sharing their stories... they might be well represented in HN, but they're a minority of normal humans. And I'd like other potential Meritt's to realize how utterly disgusting it is that he tried to shame the victim into silence.
• wonderzombie 13y ago
  That's the sort of story that'll spread like wildfire. You must be using a different Internet from me. On my Internet, it looks something like this: "Oh, you did speak up? You should have spoken up louder. You (should|should not) have cursed at him. You (should|should not) have been more polite. You (should|should not) have left. You (should|should not) have called the cops." You can nitpick someone's past circumstances ad infinitum, as being too much of this or too little of that because there will never be a perfect, falsifiable individual test case— someone will find a reason why it's invalid. And after the fact, an individual can't go back and revise what they did, so all folks like you have to do is pick a reason why they did it wrong, and you can safely write it off. In actuality, post isn't meant to be a conclusive proof or some damning, final conclusion. It's a data point, one among many as women get up the courage to talk about this shit. We need data points because there is actually a large subset of people who simply don't believe this is even a problem, let alone something they ought to think about.
• dgempesaw 13y ago
  If we actually want to "nip it in the bud," shouldn't we be talking at/about/towards the men who groped and insulted her ? That's the actual bud here, right? Why are we all trying to police her behavior instead of the men who attacked her?
• mikeleeorg 13y ago
  Not everyone is able to "nip it in the bud" as easily as you may be. I'm not saying you're wrong, just pointing out that the solution you cite is not always easy.