9 ms·

This whole episode is pretty depressing. But, it's far better for people to live without illusions about the nature of their bosses, etc. At the risk of a hund

by lmg643 13y ago

This whole episode is pretty depressing. But, it's far better for people to live without illusions about the nature of their bosses, etc. At the risk of a hundred downvotes, I wonder how many people can see the parallels in the current silicon valley push for "immigration reform." Having watched H1B farms style companies up close and personal, I can say there is very little to recommend about this model of employment, other than the CEOs like having a lower employee expense base. It might sound more exciting to hear the pitch from a wunderkind like Mark Z, but it's still the same story.

dredmorbius 13y ago
The H1B issue is absolutely about providing cheap, endentured labour: visa holders are tied to their sponsoring employer and must appeal to be allowed to seek other employment. Norm Matloff of UC Davis has literally been trying to expose this for decades, with little luck: http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~matloff/h1b.html http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~matloff/h1b.html http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~matloff/h1b10min.html http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~matloff/h1b10min.html Moreover: this is entirely consistent with behavior of employer first observed in the 18th century: [I]n every part of Europe twenty workmen serve under a master for one that is independent, and the wages of labour are everywhere understood to be, what they usually are, when the labourer is one person, and the owner of the stock which employs him another. What are the common wages of labour, depends everywhere upon the contract usually made between those two parties, whose interests are by no means the same. The workmen desire to get as much, the masters to give as little, as possible. The former are disposed to combine in order to raise, the latter in order to lower, the wages of labour. It is not, however, difficult to foresee which of the two parties must, upon all ordinary occasions, have the advantage in the dispute, and force the other into a compliance with their terms. The masters, being fewer in number, can combine much more easily: and the law, besides, authorises, or at least does not prohibit, their combinations, while it prohibits those of the workmen. We have no acts of parliament against combining to lower the price of work, but many against combining to raise it. In all such disputes, the masters can hold out much longer. A landlord, a farmer, a master manufacturer, or merchant, though they did not employ a single workman, could generally live a year or two upon the stocks, which they have already acquired. Many workmen could not subsist a week, few could subsist a month, and scarce any a year, without employment. In the long run, the workman may be as necessary to his master as his master is to him; but the necessity is not so immediate. Marx, you ask? No. Engles? No. That's Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3300/3300-h/3300-h.htm#link2HCH0008 http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3300/3300-h/3300-h.htm#link2H...
- 001sky 13y ago
  This is the dirtly little secret. Even if you hire at "market wages" there are all sorts of ways to exploit the relationship going forward. The power-assymetry this puts the H1B holder in is the opposite of 'negotiating leverage', and one can rest assure that this will not go un-noticed.
  - nazka 13y ago
    I am French, my GF is in San Francisco, and I am trying to get a decent company to avoid that. And it's hard... :/
    - joshAg 13y ago
      check out riverbed. i'm not h1b, but i had many coworkers there who were and said it was great for h1b workers.
      - nazka 13y ago
        Thank you very much! I appreciate that.
- rgovind 13y ago
  >The H1B issue is absolutely about providing cheap, endentured labour: visa holders are tied to their sponsoring employer and must appeal to be allowed to seek other employment This is plain wrong. You can very easily shift and people do shift. You just interview with a different company, just like a citizen would.
  - turar 13y ago
    +1. H-1B transfer process is much easier than an initial H-1B application process, so moving to a new employer is almost just as easy as if you were a citizen.
  - emmapersky 13y ago
    No, its not that simple. The new company still has to file a petition for H1B, its just not subject to quota like a first time H1B. its not hard but no way is it as simple as being a citizen.
rmc 13y ago
Conversely, it raises the wages of non-USA-ians.
blazespin 13y ago
Immigration reform is fine but it needs to be balanced by restraints on corporate power to do things like wage theft. What I'd like to see is things like a complete national abolishment of non-compete agreements as a rider on Immigration Reform. Conspiring to keep out immigrants is interesting (who doesn't want to pull the ladder up after we're safe), but it if we're honest with ourselves it's not appealing to our better nature.

by lmg643 13y ago

dredmorbius 13y ago

The H1B issue is absolutely about providing cheap, endentured labour: visa holders are tied to their sponsoring employer and must appeal to be allowed to seek other employment. Norm Matloff of UC Davis has literally been trying to expose this for decades, with little luck: http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~matloff/h1b.html http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~matloff/h1b.html http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~matloff/h1b10min.html http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~matloff/h1b10min.html Moreover: this is entirely consistent with behavior of employer first observed in the 18th century: [I]n every part of Europe twenty workmen serve under a master for one that is independent, and the wages of labour are everywhere understood to be, what they usually are, when the labourer is one person, and the owner of the stock which employs him another. What are the common wages of labour, depends everywhere upon the contract usually made between those two parties, whose interests are by no means the same. The workmen desire to get as much, the masters to give as little, as possible. The former are disposed to combine in order to raise, the latter in order to lower, the wages of labour. It is not, however, difficult to foresee which of the two parties must, upon all ordinary occasions, have the advantage in the dispute, and force the other into a compliance with their terms. The masters, being fewer in number, can combine much more easily: and the law, besides, authorises, or at least does not prohibit, their combinations, while it prohibits those of the workmen. We have no acts of parliament against combining to lower the price of work, but many against combining to raise it. In all such disputes, the masters can hold out much longer. A landlord, a farmer, a master manufacturer, or merchant, though they did not employ a single workman, could generally live a year or two upon the stocks, which they have already acquired. Many workmen could not subsist a week, few could subsist a month, and scarce any a year, without employment. In the long run, the workman may be as necessary to his master as his master is to him; but the necessity is not so immediate. Marx, you ask? No. Engles? No. That's Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3300/3300-h/3300-h.htm#link2HCH0008 http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3300/3300-h/3300-h.htm#link2H...

001sky 13y ago
This is the dirtly little secret. Even if you hire at "market wages" there are all sorts of ways to exploit the relationship going forward. The power-assymetry this puts the H1B holder in is the opposite of 'negotiating leverage', and one can rest assure that this will not go un-noticed.
- nazka 13y ago
  I am French, my GF is in San Francisco, and I am trying to get a decent company to avoid that. And it's hard... :/
  - joshAg 13y ago
    check out riverbed. i'm not h1b, but i had many coworkers there who were and said it was great for h1b workers.
    - nazka 13y ago
      Thank you very much! I appreciate that.
rgovind 13y ago
>The H1B issue is absolutely about providing cheap, endentured labour: visa holders are tied to their sponsoring employer and must appeal to be allowed to seek other employment This is plain wrong. You can very easily shift and people do shift. You just interview with a different company, just like a citizen would.
- turar 13y ago
  +1. H-1B transfer process is much easier than an initial H-1B application process, so moving to a new employer is almost just as easy as if you were a citizen.
- emmapersky 13y ago
  No, its not that simple. The new company still has to file a petition for H1B, its just not subject to quota like a first time H1B. its not hard but no way is it as simple as being a citizen.

rmc 13y ago

Conversely, it raises the wages of non-USA-ians.

blazespin 13y ago

Immigration reform is fine but it needs to be balanced by restraints on corporate power to do things like wage theft. What I'd like to see is things like a complete national abolishment of non-compete agreements as a rider on Immigration Reform. Conspiring to keep out immigrants is interesting (who doesn't want to pull the ladder up after we're safe), but it if we're honest with ourselves it's not appealing to our better nature.