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"I'm sorry, but we sold you a book that we didn't have rights to and violated copyright. Can we please have it back?" Doesn't work like that. If you're a major

"I'm sorry, but we sold you a book that we didn't have rights to and violated copyright. Can we please have it back?" Doesn't work like that. If you're a major digital salesperson and somebody's transmitting data illegally, as they were in this case, then it's your responsibility to withdraw the book. Amazon should have been much more polite about what was happening, but letting people keep illegal content was out of the question here. I understand that. If this had been a legal publisher of 1984 suddenly switching positions, I'd agree that the user should have the choice. Considering it wasn't an authorized publisher, Amazon did the one thing they could. Nobody should EVER under any circumstance delete ANYTHING from my computer, even if I bought it or not, if it is pirated or not, if it is stolen or not. Really? Because I've always thought that deleting pirated content would be a great punishment for piracy. If I've stolen something, I have no right to it. That's implicit in the idea of piracy. Deleting the stuff I pirated seems like a harmless punishment.

CamperBob 17y ago
Scary-looking guy with tire iron and Barnes & Noble-embroidered balaclava, when caught breaking into your house at 3 AM: "I'm sorry, but we sold you a book whose North American rights the publisher failed to secure in time for publication. I'll just take it back now, and be on my way. Thank you for shopping at Barnes & Noble, here's your $6.95 back." What's unacceptable in meatspace is unacceptable in DRM-space. Stay out of my computer.
- zimbabwe 17y ago
  I couldn't disagree more with that. With the greater freedom of the electronic world comes a greater ability for people working within the law to do their jobs. We should firmly be on the lookout for abuses of this power, but in this case: * Amazon found out that they were accidentally distributing something illegal * Amazon happened to have the power to fix their problem entirely, without missing a single copy of the illegally-published book * This happened near-instantaneously, without anybody's time being wasted * Amazon refunded every single person their money back, so they lost no money whatsoever Amazon doesn't look scary, they didn't come in armed with weapons, they didn't illegally access anything. If I was in Barnes & Noble and bought a book, then was approached by an employee saying "We weren't actually allowed to sell you that copy of the book, here's your money back," I might be disappointed at not having the book, but Barnes & Noble retains the right to take that book back from me if they're also returning my money. You know how we like to loudly trumpet that PIRACY IS NOT STEALING! because there's no physical copy and therefore no cost to how many times a file can be replicated? Well, that works both ways. When you're dealing with a thin sliver of data which can be modified without even a chance of damage to any other data, and when you have a moral imperative to remove that data and can do it without harm to anybody, then you have every right to jump back in and edit that data, precisely because it isn't meatspace.
- CamperBob 17y ago
  If I was in Barnes & Noble and bought a book, then was approached by an employee saying "We weren't actually allowed to sell you that copy of the book, here's your money back," I might be disappointed at not having the book, but Barnes & Noble retains the right to take that book back from me if they're also returning my money. That argument would make more sense if Barnes & Noble owned my computer, or if I were still physically present on their store's property.
  - zimbabwe 17y ago
    But why should you have to be? With my Kindle, I am always in Amazon's store, as close to physically as matters. I can buy a book from anywhere. Why, then, shouldn't they feel free to approach me, so long as I'm still on Amazon's property? (I'll also clear up, since I figure it'll be brought up in a moment anyway, that if Amazon had targeted copies of 1984 that weren't from their Whispernet store then I'd be more offended.)
CamperBob 17y ago
With my Kindle, I am always in Amazon's store, That question is far from legally settled.
- zimbabwe 17y ago
  That's true, but I see no reason for that not to be the case. If I've got access to books from anywhere, it makes sense that Amazon should have the right to access me as well. Then the rules of the free market dictate that if people should be offended by Amazon doing that, another company could make money from choosing a different path, and then Amazon would be forced to change its policy.
  - tome 17y ago
    The reason that rights have to be rights is that they're not always economically favorable.
    - zimbabwe 17y ago
      My right to the book provided to me straight from Amazon's private store, delivered to Amazon's private device, which I paid money and signed a contract to use? Do I have a right to it because somebody illegally published copyrighted work and handed it to me? I just said I was going to bow out of this conversation, so I'll end my line of thought with this: A company has the right to do what it wants with its products, and when that company is Amazon and has made countless innovations that help me find the stuff that I want, when it gave me my second-favorite gizmo, and when it has not once in the near-decade I've been a member violated my trust, when it's one above and beyond to make me happy, then I'm going to look with skepticism upon claims that Amazon's removing an illegal book and offering a refund equates to a sacrilege of justice. The people comparing this with 1984 are bizarrely wrong.
      - scscsc 17y ago
        A company has the right to do what it wants with its products, and when that company ..., when it ..., and when it ..., when it's ..., then I'm going to look with skepticism upon claims that Amazon's removing an illegal book and offering a refund equates to a sacrilege of justice. All of the elided content in the above quote is presumably good stuff Amazon did for the commenter. It is my impression that the commenter has just admited to being driven by personal experience (instead of objectively judging) when he said that Amazon removing an "illegal" book from the Kindle is not unjust.
timwiseman 17y ago
Doesn't work like that. If you're a major digital salesperson and somebody's transmitting data illegally, as they were in this case, then it's your responsibility to withdraw the book. Withdraw the book from further sales? Absolutely and no doubt. Withdraw it from people who already purchased it without doing anything wrong? Absolutely not. The legal questions are complicated and IANAL, but morally they had no right to remove something that was rightfully purchased and in use from people who had done no wrong. letting people keep illegal content was out of the question here. Hardly. The users did nothing wrong. Amazon (or arguably the publishers) made the mistake, the purchasers did nothing wrong. Any penalties (if proper) to be born should have been born by and only by Amazon. Really? Because I've always thought that deleting pirated content would be a great punishment for piracy. If I've stolen something, I have no right to it. That's implicit in the idea of piracy. Deleting the stuff I pirated seems like a harmless punishment. This is getting off on a tangent since this case is not about piracy (the customers did everything right and purchased the book, Amazon thought they were doing everything at the time). But to go off on that tangent, no one should have the ability or right to delete anything or deliver any form of "punishment" without a judge being involved, and once it got to that point then simply deleting the files wouldn't be nearly enough.
- zimbabwe 17y ago
  The legal questions are complicated and IANAL, but morally they had no right to remove something that was rightfully purchased and in use from people who had done no wrong. But why not? Morally it would have been wrong to allow a leak of something that wasn't rightfully theirs when they had such a simple system set up to fix it all. It would have been wrong if they hadn't emailed every person who owned the book. It would have been wrong if they hadn't offered a refund. But they did, and they did. Amazon's been transparent about all of this. Any penalties (if proper) to be born should have been born by and only by Amazon. And they bore it, offered a refund, and sent out an apology. What sort of punishment do you expect them to have suffered otherwise? "Amazon must hang its head and look guilty cos it did a bad thing"? But to go off on that tangent, no one should have the ability or right to delete anything or deliver any form of "punishment" without a judge being involved, and once it got to that point then simply deleting the files wouldn't be nearly enough. I said on a separate thread of comments that I don't hold a very firm belief in ownership of data, unless there's money involved. In this case, Amazon gave me the data, encoded to work on their hardware, so I hold that they have the right to do whatever they want with the content on it so long as they don't take my money needlessly. They didn't.

CamperBob 17y ago

Scary-looking guy with tire iron and Barnes & Noble-embroidered balaclava, when caught breaking into your house at 3 AM: "I'm sorry, but we sold you a book whose North American rights the publisher failed to secure in time for publication. I'll just take it back now, and be on my way. Thank you for shopping at Barnes & Noble, here's your $6.95 back." What's unacceptable in meatspace is unacceptable in DRM-space. Stay out of my computer.

zimbabwe 17y ago
I couldn't disagree more with that. With the greater freedom of the electronic world comes a greater ability for people working within the law to do their jobs. We should firmly be on the lookout for abuses of this power, but in this case: * Amazon found out that they were accidentally distributing something illegal * Amazon happened to have the power to fix their problem entirely, without missing a single copy of the illegally-published book * This happened near-instantaneously, without anybody's time being wasted * Amazon refunded every single person their money back, so they lost no money whatsoever Amazon doesn't look scary, they didn't come in armed with weapons, they didn't illegally access anything. If I was in Barnes & Noble and bought a book, then was approached by an employee saying "We weren't actually allowed to sell you that copy of the book, here's your money back," I might be disappointed at not having the book, but Barnes & Noble retains the right to take that book back from me if they're also returning my money. You know how we like to loudly trumpet that PIRACY IS NOT STEALING! because there's no physical copy and therefore no cost to how many times a file can be replicated? Well, that works both ways. When you're dealing with a thin sliver of data which can be modified without even a chance of damage to any other data, and when you have a moral imperative to remove that data and can do it without harm to anybody, then you have every right to jump back in and edit that data, precisely because it isn't meatspace.
CamperBob 17y ago
If I was in Barnes & Noble and bought a book, then was approached by an employee saying "We weren't actually allowed to sell you that copy of the book, here's your money back," I might be disappointed at not having the book, but Barnes & Noble retains the right to take that book back from me if they're also returning my money. That argument would make more sense if Barnes & Noble owned my computer, or if I were still physically present on their store's property.
- zimbabwe 17y ago
  But why should you have to be? With my Kindle, I am always in Amazon's store, as close to physically as matters. I can buy a book from anywhere. Why, then, shouldn't they feel free to approach me, so long as I'm still on Amazon's property? (I'll also clear up, since I figure it'll be brought up in a moment anyway, that if Amazon had targeted copies of 1984 that weren't from their Whispernet store then I'd be more offended.)

CamperBob 17y ago

With my Kindle, I am always in Amazon's store, That question is far from legally settled.

zimbabwe 17y ago
That's true, but I see no reason for that not to be the case. If I've got access to books from anywhere, it makes sense that Amazon should have the right to access me as well. Then the rules of the free market dictate that if people should be offended by Amazon doing that, another company could make money from choosing a different path, and then Amazon would be forced to change its policy.
- tome 17y ago
  The reason that rights have to be rights is that they're not always economically favorable.
  - zimbabwe 17y ago
    My right to the book provided to me straight from Amazon's private store, delivered to Amazon's private device, which I paid money and signed a contract to use? Do I have a right to it because somebody illegally published copyrighted work and handed it to me? I just said I was going to bow out of this conversation, so I'll end my line of thought with this: A company has the right to do what it wants with its products, and when that company is Amazon and has made countless innovations that help me find the stuff that I want, when it gave me my second-favorite gizmo, and when it has not once in the near-decade I've been a member violated my trust, when it's one above and beyond to make me happy, then I'm going to look with skepticism upon claims that Amazon's removing an illegal book and offering a refund equates to a sacrilege of justice. The people comparing this with 1984 are bizarrely wrong.
    - scscsc 17y ago
      A company has the right to do what it wants with its products, and when that company ..., when it ..., and when it ..., when it's ..., then I'm going to look with skepticism upon claims that Amazon's removing an illegal book and offering a refund equates to a sacrilege of justice. All of the elided content in the above quote is presumably good stuff Amazon did for the commenter. It is my impression that the commenter has just admited to being driven by personal experience (instead of objectively judging) when he said that Amazon removing an "illegal" book from the Kindle is not unjust.

timwiseman 17y ago

Doesn't work like that. If you're a major digital salesperson and somebody's transmitting data illegally, as they were in this case, then it's your responsibility to withdraw the book. Withdraw the book from further sales? Absolutely and no doubt. Withdraw it from people who already purchased it without doing anything wrong? Absolutely not. The legal questions are complicated and IANAL, but morally they had no right to remove something that was rightfully purchased and in use from people who had done no wrong. letting people keep illegal content was out of the question here. Hardly. The users did nothing wrong. Amazon (or arguably the publishers) made the mistake, the purchasers did nothing wrong. Any penalties (if proper) to be born should have been born by and only by Amazon. Really? Because I've always thought that deleting pirated content would be a great punishment for piracy. If I've stolen something, I have no right to it. That's implicit in the idea of piracy. Deleting the stuff I pirated seems like a harmless punishment. This is getting off on a tangent since this case is not about piracy (the customers did everything right and purchased the book, Amazon thought they were doing everything at the time). But to go off on that tangent, no one should have the ability or right to delete anything or deliver any form of "punishment" without a judge being involved, and once it got to that point then simply deleting the files wouldn't be nearly enough.

zimbabwe 17y ago
The legal questions are complicated and IANAL, but morally they had no right to remove something that was rightfully purchased and in use from people who had done no wrong. But why not? Morally it would have been wrong to allow a leak of something that wasn't rightfully theirs when they had such a simple system set up to fix it all. It would have been wrong if they hadn't emailed every person who owned the book. It would have been wrong if they hadn't offered a refund. But they did, and they did. Amazon's been transparent about all of this. Any penalties (if proper) to be born should have been born by and only by Amazon. And they bore it, offered a refund, and sent out an apology. What sort of punishment do you expect them to have suffered otherwise? "Amazon must hang its head and look guilty cos it did a bad thing"? But to go off on that tangent, no one should have the ability or right to delete anything or deliver any form of "punishment" without a judge being involved, and once it got to that point then simply deleting the files wouldn't be nearly enough. I said on a separate thread of comments that I don't hold a very firm belief in ownership of data, unless there's money involved. In this case, Amazon gave me the data, encoded to work on their hardware, so I hold that they have the right to do whatever they want with the content on it so long as they don't take my money needlessly. They didn't.