5 ms·

Not really. A competent freelance developer in the valley will make $150-200/h. A competent lawyer (not a partner) in the valley will make $350+/h.

by kareemm 13y ago

a8da6b0c91d 13y ago
Interesting. Is that entirely comparable? The lawyer is equivalently a lone freelancer, not part of a specialized organization? The comparable developer would be part of a boutique consultancy.
randomdata 13y ago
What happened to the news in the past year or so about the large glut of lawyers in America, having to work for relative peanuts because of supply outpacing demand? Has the valley somehow managed to keep them out? Or is it that specialized lawyers can make $350+/hr? In which case developers with certain specialities can make that much as well.
- rayiner 13y ago
  You can hire a bar-admitted lawyer for $20/hour, yet some firms bill first year associates at almost $400/hour. The corporate service professions (law, finance, accounting, and consulting) have a self-regulating labor supply. A professional without hands on experience is not valuable to corporate clients, and hands on experience can only be acquired in the context of real litigation/deals/audits/etc. If demand grows, firms need to train and hire more people, and supply grows. I demand stops growing, as happened after the 2008 recession, firms cut back training and hiring to replacement levels, and supply stabilizes. That circumstance is unfortunate for the people who want jobs in corporate law/finance/accounting/consulting that can't get them, but limits the degree to which changes in demand affect the price of services.
  - acgourley 13y ago
    Why don't we see more firms created?
    - krakensden 13y ago
      We were- right now they're all shrinking and collapsing. Also, the mode compensation for a lawyer is only like 55,000. The low population, insane compensation segment drags the mean way up.
abc_lisper 13y ago
Please tell me how. I would be forever in your debt for this.
pyrrhotech 13y ago
I know lawyers who charge $1000+/hour. Name me one programmer who can do the same. Outsourcing has killed our industry in terms of monetary compensation
- pm90 13y ago
  I would suggest to you to think your premises carefully before coming to such conclusions. When in an unfair situation, it is easy to be angry at a group that you consider as 'outsiders'. However, even with outsourcing, there are thousands of open positions for software developers/architects that are just not getting filled. The only real solution to this problem that I can see is for each of us to be so super smart and accomplished that we have the capacity to make a significant contribution that not many others can. And then develop the social skills to demand the kind of money that we (fairly) think we deserve.
  - josho 13y ago
    Outsourcing has ensured a downward pressure on salaries. Can an employee that is not allowed to leave his employer really ever going to be earning true market rate on salary? That's the case for HS1B in the US. There is plenty of evidence that salaries are manipulated down. Now, regarding your proposed solution of becoming a master of rare and difficult skills. That's what I strive for, but that can be a challenge in an industry where technologies are replaced every 5 years or so. In reality it becomes that much harder because unlike other professions the mindset of employers does not respect the concept of 'superstars'. Ie. I can't really name a developer that has the ability to command a 50% premium over his peers. However, I can name several companies that can demand a price premium for their consulting services. So, how do we as a field make the shift from companies achieving a price premium to individuals achieving a salary premium?
- deleted 13y ago
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baddox 13y ago
Might it be related to the fact that becoming a lawyer requires a heck of a lot more training and schooling than a programmer?
ams6110 13y ago
An individual freelancer might make that. A consultant with an established firm will be billed at close to lawyer rates, if not more. The consultant isn't being paid that however, as the firm will keep a fair cut for overhead.

Not really. A competent freelance developer in the valley will make $150-200/h. A competent lawyer (not a partner) in the valley will make $350+/h.

by kareemm 13y ago

Not really. A competent freelance developer in the valley will make $150-200/h. A competent lawyer (not a partner) in the valley will make $350+/h.

a8da6b0c91d 13y ago

Interesting. Is that entirely comparable? The lawyer is equivalently a lone freelancer, not part of a specialized organization? The comparable developer would be part of a boutique consultancy.

randomdata 13y ago

What happened to the news in the past year or so about the large glut of lawyers in America, having to work for relative peanuts because of supply outpacing demand? Has the valley somehow managed to keep them out? Or is it that specialized lawyers can make $350+/hr? In which case developers with certain specialities can make that much as well.

rayiner 13y ago
You can hire a bar-admitted lawyer for $20/hour, yet some firms bill first year associates at almost $400/hour. The corporate service professions (law, finance, accounting, and consulting) have a self-regulating labor supply. A professional without hands on experience is not valuable to corporate clients, and hands on experience can only be acquired in the context of real litigation/deals/audits/etc. If demand grows, firms need to train and hire more people, and supply grows. I demand stops growing, as happened after the 2008 recession, firms cut back training and hiring to replacement levels, and supply stabilizes. That circumstance is unfortunate for the people who want jobs in corporate law/finance/accounting/consulting that can't get them, but limits the degree to which changes in demand affect the price of services.
- acgourley 13y ago
  Why don't we see more firms created?
  - krakensden 13y ago
    We were- right now they're all shrinking and collapsing. Also, the mode compensation for a lawyer is only like 55,000. The low population, insane compensation segment drags the mean way up.

abc_lisper 13y ago

Please tell me how. I would be forever in your debt for this.

pyrrhotech 13y ago

I know lawyers who charge $1000+/hour. Name me one programmer who can do the same. Outsourcing has killed our industry in terms of monetary compensation

pm90 13y ago
I would suggest to you to think your premises carefully before coming to such conclusions. When in an unfair situation, it is easy to be angry at a group that you consider as 'outsiders'. However, even with outsourcing, there are thousands of open positions for software developers/architects that are just not getting filled. The only real solution to this problem that I can see is for each of us to be so super smart and accomplished that we have the capacity to make a significant contribution that not many others can. And then develop the social skills to demand the kind of money that we (fairly) think we deserve.
- josho 13y ago
  Outsourcing has ensured a downward pressure on salaries. Can an employee that is not allowed to leave his employer really ever going to be earning true market rate on salary? That's the case for HS1B in the US. There is plenty of evidence that salaries are manipulated down. Now, regarding your proposed solution of becoming a master of rare and difficult skills. That's what I strive for, but that can be a challenge in an industry where technologies are replaced every 5 years or so. In reality it becomes that much harder because unlike other professions the mindset of employers does not respect the concept of 'superstars'. Ie. I can't really name a developer that has the ability to command a 50% premium over his peers. However, I can name several companies that can demand a price premium for their consulting services. So, how do we as a field make the shift from companies achieving a price premium to individuals achieving a salary premium?
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deleted 13y ago
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baddox 13y ago

Might it be related to the fact that becoming a lawyer requires a heck of a lot more training and schooling than a programmer?

ams6110 13y ago

An individual freelancer might make that. A consultant with an established firm will be billed at close to lawyer rates, if not more. The consultant isn't being paid that however, as the firm will keep a fair cut for overhead.