5 ms·

And in Germany I'd be hard-pressed to find you a non-management tech job that makes north of 90k USD/year. It would be great if someone could prove me wrong.

by pille 13y ago

larholm 13y ago
90k USD ist just shy of 66k Euro, which is by no means unheard of for an experienced developer. I know personal anecdotes doesn't count for much, but I turned down several 80k offers in Berlin. I would expect salaries in Munich to be 10-15% higher due to cost of living.
- pille 13y ago
  From what I've heard from colleagues, and seen while working on projects there, Munich sucks precisely because it's so expensive and the pay does not track the cost of living. Working in Frankfurt pays better, and living there is just slightly cheaper. Berlin's cost of living is catching up fast. You're right that 90k USD (~65-70k EUR) for a dev is not unheard of, but it appears to be the final stop on the salary train for that profession, unfortunately.
  - larholm 13y ago
    I should have clarified then. I turned down 80k EUR offers, so 70k EUR is definitely not the final stop in Berlin.
auctiontheory 13y ago
And in Germany I'd be hard-pressed to find you a non-management tech job that makes north of 90k USD/year. How is that relevant? (And) Once you factor in healthcare, education (for kids) and housing, I suspect that 90K USD in Berlin goes just as far as 200K USD in Silicon Valley, probably a lot further.
- pille 13y ago
  It doesn't. Germany is having its own little housing price explosion in every major city where there is employment. Prices are being driven up by wealthy non-tech investors throughout the EU thinking German (and London) real estate is the only safe place to hold onto their fortunes. Consumer goods prices are also significantly higher than in the US. Healthcare is approximately the same cost now from what I've seen with ACA prices in the US. Education is still cheaper, but only if you assume an American student will have zero financial aid. I also doubt this lower price tag offsets the prices and regressive taxation elsewhere throughout the economy.
  - nknighthb 13y ago
    > Healthcare is approximately the same cost now from what I've seen with ACA prices in the US. Germany has $6,000+ deductibles? Thin provider networks that leave out the good doctors and hospitals, and large or even unlimited out-of-pocket limits for out-of-network care? Monthly premiums are just the beginning of the story.
    - pille 13y ago
      Not to go too deep into the weeds, but there are comparable trade-offs, such as premiums being a percentage of pay instead of a flat fee. The German system is without a doubt better, but I think (and hope) that the US is closing this gap with the ACA and a general awareness of the problem. But we don't need to compare ledgers to show that 80k USD in Berlin, Munich or Frankfurt won't go nearly as far as 200k in SV or SF. That's what exchange rates and the big mac index are for, and that's why I converted the currency to USD in my original comment. You can argue the rate is maybe 10 or 15% off, and I can argue for 10-15% the other way, but no way is a dollar (0.82 EUR) 2-3 times as powerful in Germany.
  - auctiontheory 13y ago
    Healthcare is approximately the same cost now from what I've seen with ACA prices in the US. Are you using ACA? (I am.) Do Germans have to pay $500-$1000/month, maybe more if you're older, for a plan that pays almost 80% of their in-network costs? And speaking of those costs, how much is an endoscopy in Germany? Here I was just quoted $8000.

And in Germany I'd be hard-pressed to find you a non-management tech job that makes north of 90k USD/year. It would be great if someone could prove me wrong.

by pille 13y ago

And in Germany I'd be hard-pressed to find you a non-management tech job that makes north of 90k USD/year. It would be great if someone could prove me wrong.

larholm 13y ago

90k USD ist just shy of 66k Euro, which is by no means unheard of for an experienced developer. I know personal anecdotes doesn't count for much, but I turned down several 80k offers in Berlin. I would expect salaries in Munich to be 10-15% higher due to cost of living.

pille 13y ago
From what I've heard from colleagues, and seen while working on projects there, Munich sucks precisely because it's so expensive and the pay does not track the cost of living. Working in Frankfurt pays better, and living there is just slightly cheaper. Berlin's cost of living is catching up fast. You're right that 90k USD (~65-70k EUR) for a dev is not unheard of, but it appears to be the final stop on the salary train for that profession, unfortunately.
- larholm 13y ago
  I should have clarified then. I turned down 80k EUR offers, so 70k EUR is definitely not the final stop in Berlin.

auctiontheory 13y ago

And in Germany I'd be hard-pressed to find you a non-management tech job that makes north of 90k USD/year. How is that relevant? (And) Once you factor in healthcare, education (for kids) and housing, I suspect that 90K USD in Berlin goes just as far as 200K USD in Silicon Valley, probably a lot further.

pille 13y ago
It doesn't. Germany is having its own little housing price explosion in every major city where there is employment. Prices are being driven up by wealthy non-tech investors throughout the EU thinking German (and London) real estate is the only safe place to hold onto their fortunes. Consumer goods prices are also significantly higher than in the US. Healthcare is approximately the same cost now from what I've seen with ACA prices in the US. Education is still cheaper, but only if you assume an American student will have zero financial aid. I also doubt this lower price tag offsets the prices and regressive taxation elsewhere throughout the economy.
- nknighthb 13y ago
  > Healthcare is approximately the same cost now from what I've seen with ACA prices in the US. Germany has $6,000+ deductibles? Thin provider networks that leave out the good doctors and hospitals, and large or even unlimited out-of-pocket limits for out-of-network care? Monthly premiums are just the beginning of the story.
  - pille 13y ago
    Not to go too deep into the weeds, but there are comparable trade-offs, such as premiums being a percentage of pay instead of a flat fee. The German system is without a doubt better, but I think (and hope) that the US is closing this gap with the ACA and a general awareness of the problem. But we don't need to compare ledgers to show that 80k USD in Berlin, Munich or Frankfurt won't go nearly as far as 200k in SV or SF. That's what exchange rates and the big mac index are for, and that's why I converted the currency to USD in my original comment. You can argue the rate is maybe 10 or 15% off, and I can argue for 10-15% the other way, but no way is a dollar (0.82 EUR) 2-3 times as powerful in Germany.
- auctiontheory 13y ago
  Healthcare is approximately the same cost now from what I've seen with ACA prices in the US. Are you using ACA? (I am.) Do Germans have to pay $500-$1000/month, maybe more if you're older, for a plan that pays almost 80% of their in-network costs? And speaking of those costs, how much is an endoscopy in Germany? Here I was just quoted $8000.