5 ms·

And therein lies the problem. Although these companies are being prosecuted, nobody wants to run afoul of them or anybody else. I'm not saying that any one indi

And therein lies the problem. Although these companies are being prosecuted, nobody wants to run afoul of them or anybody else. I'm not saying that any one individual or company is presently a bullying wrongdoer, but what I am saying is that there is an culture of fear around speaking out or rubbing people the wrong way. This atmosphere--along with the kind of proprietary shenanigans that make it difficult or impossible to truly own your own hardware and software stack--is the very opposite of the hacker ethos that created much of the value these barons robbed from the economy.

auctiontheory 13y ago
It's US culture - people are easily and often fired. Very different other places, even in tech, e.g. Israel, Germany.
- pille 13y ago
  And in Germany I'd be hard-pressed to find you a non-management tech job that makes north of 90k USD/year. It would be great if someone could prove me wrong.
  - larholm 13y ago
    90k USD ist just shy of 66k Euro, which is by no means unheard of for an experienced developer. I know personal anecdotes doesn't count for much, but I turned down several 80k offers in Berlin. I would expect salaries in Munich to be 10-15% higher due to cost of living.
    - pille 13y ago
      From what I've heard from colleagues, and seen while working on projects there, Munich sucks precisely because it's so expensive and the pay does not track the cost of living. Working in Frankfurt pays better, and living there is just slightly cheaper. Berlin's cost of living is catching up fast. You're right that 90k USD (~65-70k EUR) for a dev is not unheard of, but it appears to be the final stop on the salary train for that profession, unfortunately.
      - larholm 13y ago
        I should have clarified then. I turned down 80k EUR offers, so 70k EUR is definitely not the final stop in Berlin.
  - auctiontheory 13y ago
    And in Germany I'd be hard-pressed to find you a non-management tech job that makes north of 90k USD/year. How is that relevant? (And) Once you factor in healthcare, education (for kids) and housing, I suspect that 90K USD in Berlin goes just as far as 200K USD in Silicon Valley, probably a lot further.
    - pille 13y ago
      It doesn't. Germany is having its own little housing price explosion in every major city where there is employment. Prices are being driven up by wealthy non-tech investors throughout the EU thinking German (and London) real estate is the only safe place to hold onto their fortunes. Consumer goods prices are also significantly higher than in the US. Healthcare is approximately the same cost now from what I've seen with ACA prices in the US. Education is still cheaper, but only if you assume an American student will have zero financial aid. I also doubt this lower price tag offsets the prices and regressive taxation elsewhere throughout the economy.
      - nknighthb 13y ago
        > Healthcare is approximately the same cost now from what I've seen with ACA prices in the US. Germany has $6,000+ deductibles? Thin provider networks that leave out the good doctors and hospitals, and large or even unlimited out-of-pocket limits for out-of-network care? Monthly premiums are just the beginning of the story.
        pille 13y ago
        Not to go too deep into the weeds, but there are comparable trade-offs, such as premiums being a percentage of pay instead of a flat fee. The German system is without a doubt better, but I think (and hope) that the US is closing this gap with the ACA and a general awareness of the problem. But we don't need to compare ledgers to show that 80k USD in Berlin, Munich or Frankfurt won't go nearly as far as 200k in SV or SF. That's what exchange rates and the big mac index are for, and that's why I converted the currency to USD in my original comment. You can argue the rate is maybe 10 or 15% off, and I can argue for 10-15% the other way, but no way is a dollar (0.82 EUR) 2-3 times as powerful in Germany.
benihana 13y ago
>the value these barons robbed from the economy. It's genuinely impressive how you contort people willingly giving their money to Apple, Google, Pixar and Lucasfilm for goods and services into them robbing money from the economy.
leoc 13y ago
Note that of the fairly sizable group of high-profile, well-informed SV people who frequent this site, you never see one of them comment on a post related to this scandal.
- sounds 13y ago
  I assume you're aware of who raganwald is, the person you're replying to? Not technically Silicon Valley, but close enough. I've deliberately kept my account "low-profile" for exactly this reason. I'm in SV and frequently rub shoulders with these people. Trust me, they're not ignorant. They've picked a side already. But it's so much easier to play hardball with a new hire who doesn't know anything; thus this kind of thing is "ignored."
  - leoc 13y ago
    Yes, I know a fair bit about who raganwald is; I was thinking of the guys who are even more prominent and more SV-centred than him. All due respect to raganwald's willingness to stick his head above the parapet on sensitive topics like this, though. > But it's so much easier to play hardball with a new hire who doesn't know anything; thus this kind of thing is "ignored." I don't know about that though: if I was, say for instance, in a line of business which benefited from skilled developers going into startups rather than established tech companies this kind of news would look like the perfect advertising to me—but I'd still want to keep my head down while it was being discussed.
    - sounds 13y ago
      It looks like pg chimed in after all.
mattgreenrocks 13y ago
Old Money's corruption of SV saddens me greatly because it pollutes the culture that helped many things grow. For example, instead of open data, we seek to lock up the most inane and useless data out of fear it might be used in a way we never approved of. Basically, the existential question of Old Money is one of taking as much as possible, whereas the hacker ethos operated on more of a giving spirit.

auctiontheory 13y ago

It's US culture - people are easily and often fired. Very different other places, even in tech, e.g. Israel, Germany.

pille 13y ago
And in Germany I'd be hard-pressed to find you a non-management tech job that makes north of 90k USD/year. It would be great if someone could prove me wrong.
- larholm 13y ago
  90k USD ist just shy of 66k Euro, which is by no means unheard of for an experienced developer. I know personal anecdotes doesn't count for much, but I turned down several 80k offers in Berlin. I would expect salaries in Munich to be 10-15% higher due to cost of living.
  - pille 13y ago
    From what I've heard from colleagues, and seen while working on projects there, Munich sucks precisely because it's so expensive and the pay does not track the cost of living. Working in Frankfurt pays better, and living there is just slightly cheaper. Berlin's cost of living is catching up fast. You're right that 90k USD (~65-70k EUR) for a dev is not unheard of, but it appears to be the final stop on the salary train for that profession, unfortunately.
    - larholm 13y ago
      I should have clarified then. I turned down 80k EUR offers, so 70k EUR is definitely not the final stop in Berlin.
- auctiontheory 13y ago
  And in Germany I'd be hard-pressed to find you a non-management tech job that makes north of 90k USD/year. How is that relevant? (And) Once you factor in healthcare, education (for kids) and housing, I suspect that 90K USD in Berlin goes just as far as 200K USD in Silicon Valley, probably a lot further.
  - pille 13y ago
    It doesn't. Germany is having its own little housing price explosion in every major city where there is employment. Prices are being driven up by wealthy non-tech investors throughout the EU thinking German (and London) real estate is the only safe place to hold onto their fortunes. Consumer goods prices are also significantly higher than in the US. Healthcare is approximately the same cost now from what I've seen with ACA prices in the US. Education is still cheaper, but only if you assume an American student will have zero financial aid. I also doubt this lower price tag offsets the prices and regressive taxation elsewhere throughout the economy.
    - nknighthb 13y ago
      > Healthcare is approximately the same cost now from what I've seen with ACA prices in the US. Germany has $6,000+ deductibles? Thin provider networks that leave out the good doctors and hospitals, and large or even unlimited out-of-pocket limits for out-of-network care? Monthly premiums are just the beginning of the story.
      - pille 13y ago
        Not to go too deep into the weeds, but there are comparable trade-offs, such as premiums being a percentage of pay instead of a flat fee. The German system is without a doubt better, but I think (and hope) that the US is closing this gap with the ACA and a general awareness of the problem. But we don't need to compare ledgers to show that 80k USD in Berlin, Munich or Frankfurt won't go nearly as far as 200k in SV or SF. That's what exchange rates and the big mac index are for, and that's why I converted the currency to USD in my original comment. You can argue the rate is maybe 10 or 15% off, and I can argue for 10-15% the other way, but no way is a dollar (0.82 EUR) 2-3 times as powerful in Germany.

benihana 13y ago

>the value these barons robbed from the economy. It's genuinely impressive how you contort people willingly giving their money to Apple, Google, Pixar and Lucasfilm for goods and services into them robbing money from the economy.

leoc 13y ago

Note that of the fairly sizable group of high-profile, well-informed SV people who frequent this site, you never see one of them comment on a post related to this scandal.

sounds 13y ago
I assume you're aware of who raganwald is, the person you're replying to? Not technically Silicon Valley, but close enough. I've deliberately kept my account "low-profile" for exactly this reason. I'm in SV and frequently rub shoulders with these people. Trust me, they're not ignorant. They've picked a side already. But it's so much easier to play hardball with a new hire who doesn't know anything; thus this kind of thing is "ignored."
- leoc 13y ago
  Yes, I know a fair bit about who raganwald is; I was thinking of the guys who are even more prominent and more SV-centred than him. All due respect to raganwald's willingness to stick his head above the parapet on sensitive topics like this, though. > But it's so much easier to play hardball with a new hire who doesn't know anything; thus this kind of thing is "ignored." I don't know about that though: if I was, say for instance, in a line of business which benefited from skilled developers going into startups rather than established tech companies this kind of news would look like the perfect advertising to me—but I'd still want to keep my head down while it was being discussed.
  - sounds 13y ago
    It looks like pg chimed in after all.

mattgreenrocks 13y ago

Old Money's corruption of SV saddens me greatly because it pollutes the culture that helped many things grow. For example, instead of open data, we seek to lock up the most inane and useless data out of fear it might be used in a way we never approved of. Basically, the existential question of Old Money is one of taking as much as possible, whereas the hacker ethos operated on more of a giving spirit.