6 ms·

Remember, just because people who advocate keeping marijuana illegal are horrible human beings, doesn't change the fact that marijuana is a psychoactive drug an

by Eliezer 17y ago

Remember, just because people who advocate keeping marijuana illegal are horrible human beings, doesn't change the fact that marijuana is a psychoactive drug and we don't really understand the human brain all that well. My own brain is idiosyncratic and doesn't always react as expected (e.g. to caffeine) and I've heard friends say that they think that taking marijuana during college might have permanently dulled the edge of their intelligence - which isn't exactly a controlled study or anything - but is enough to scare me away from ever trying the stuff. And yes, I also never drink alcohol, and try to steer away from large doses of caffeine. Drugs scare me, legal or not. Consider the risks and rewards very carefully before whacking on your brain with any sort of neuropharmeceutical - everything we have nowadays will be regarded by future times as the equivalent of a sledgehammer. The people trying to decriminalize and legalize drugs are, without ambiguity, the good guys. Don't confuse that with the proposition that drugs themselves are good.

zimbabwe 17y ago
Elizer, I'm going to respond to you not because I disagree with what you said, but because you stated concisely the view that's opposite the one I hold, and I figure it might be neat to provide the foil view. I don't hold my mind's current state sacrosanct. That is to say, I respect my mind incredibly, but I don't have any belief that says my mind was built the way it was for a reason, or that there's something wrong with experimenting with it. That doesn't mean I abuse it incredibly, but I'm fine with drugs and find the infrequent experiences I have with them to be worth the negligible cost they have on my mind. I won't say "drugs are good" because I think it's stupid to assign a moral value to drugs either way. Hence, the idea that the brain should be preserved and altering chemicals avoided isn't one that I find offensive in the least. But it's worth pointing out the beneficial effects they can have on you. For one thing, realizing the limits of your perception can be fascinating. Weed doesn't have that effect on me so much, but alcohol and salvia both certainly made me realize things I wouldn't have realized otherwise. Alcohol's emotional effects certainly taught me that our moods are tenuous and that we shouldn't equate our emotional states to any sort of logical truth about the world. Regarding weed and dulled intelligence - yes, I feel like that sometimes. I feel like that without using weed. Right now I'm in an emotive state where I feel like I'm going to grow fat and die without ever moving. Weed has nothing to do with those downer feelings. Since I first took weed, though, last February, I wrote a novel, designed a handful of web sites that I'm proud of, finished a few projects, etc., and I did it in between infrequent weed hits. It's worth pointing out that many great artists were users - Miles Davis and heroin most famously - and that using drugs doesn't instantly make you less creative. It might make you creative in a different way, but creativity is not something which can be gained and lost. It is a potential that we all have regardless of intelligence. Think of it more as a muscle than as a trait. We're affected by chemicals no matter how we live. You live your life according to a mixture of fats, proteins, carbohydrates, and nutrients. In my mind, worrying too much about weed is like worrying about eating fats - it's certainly possible that if you take too much, there'll be adverse effects, but assuming that a single contact with a substance will change you forever is silly. Regarding the initial question, though, hacking on weed probably won't work too well. Weed affects the sort of focus you'd need. (For certain other activities, however, like playing music, weed can help. It's not a black-and-white all-or-nothing deal.) My advice would be to try it, since you can't really be hurt trying, but if you decide not to then all power to you.
- lionhearted 17y ago
  I did a heck of a lot of research before I tried drugs at age 19, and then had a lot of fun on drugs for a few years before giving it all up entirely. My main issue with most drugs is that you can get most of the positive effects of the less addictive drugs with training, without the nasty side effects. My favorite was hashish, which I found cleaner and more clear thinking than marijuana, though it's less readily available in America. I did most of my using in Amsterdam. The exception is probably hallucinogens, which offer some interesting experiences that are probably hard to get elsewhere, and there's some that are largely harmless. I'd advise anyone to be really, really careful about the drugs that are both chemically addictive and tolerance building. Chemically addictive means withdrawal symptoms if you're not using, tolerance building means you need progressively more not to get to the same point. Nicotine, actually, probably gives you the least bang for your buck with a pretty brutal chem addictive/tolerance building mix. Anything that does similar you need to be wary about. As for the most commonly used things - alcohol and THC (marijuana, hash) - you really, really can get the lower inhibitions, relaxation, creativity, etc. with some mental training. Quitting alcohol was surprisingly easy for me because eventually, I was doing much worse socially on it than without it. When you're comfortable saying and doing what you think sober, alcohol just messes up your reaction times and coordination and makes you fat and sick. The hardest part about quitting was the social aspect, but after about six months when people got the message that I was really done, that fell off too. I always tell everyone drink around me, use, whatever you please, but it's surprising how many of my friends who go out with me eventually quit. It's like a hell of a lot people drink because they're expected to more than because they actually like the effects.
  - zimbabwe 17y ago
    Excellent points all. Anybody who wants to use social drugs should take a look at meditation and self-hypnosis, because you can get the same emotional states that you'd get with drugs through a little practice. As lionhearted mentioned, hallucinogens are the one exception.
    - elai 17y ago
      I know its very unhealthy, but how about sleep deprivation or fevers? I've never really hallucinated, so I wouldn't know.
bprater 17y ago
Agreed, pot is a psychoactive drug and it does affect everyone in a unique way. In fact, all drugs are going to play with everyone's brains in unique ways. Personally, I don't hack while high, I've never found it helpful. Others will have a different experience, because their brains are wired differently than mine. If you've wanted to experiment with drugs and aren't sure how to start, here are a few tips that have helped me. (For those of you headed to Burning Man, this could be useful!) One: read up or talk to someone about the effects a drug might have on you. (Google 'erowid'.) Make sure it's something you can tolerate and want to do. Allow yourself to be prepared for it's effects. Psychedelics like LSD or mushrooms can be an overwhelming experience. Don't be scared; just be prepared. Drugs last a finite amount of time and then you are back to exactly who you are now. Two: make sure that wherever you get the drugs from, it's as reputable as possible. For instance, in Amsterdam, it's popular to test Ecstasy after purchase and prior to consumption. Three: initially take drugs with a experienced guide. A guide They will help with dosage and proper consumptive techniques. They will be able to help you if things are getting intense or if you need to talk. Four: Never, ever try drugs at a random party around people you don't know. And never allow peer pressure to push you into trying something you don't want to do. (You'll know you are around the right people to experiment with, because you'll never be pressured. They will understand.) Five: don't do drugs when you are at an emotional low in your life. This is how addictions occur. People find that life inside the drug "bubble" is better than real world. I know people who have played with heroin and are not addicts. Six: Don't overdo it. Take it slow. It can take time for you to experience the subtleness of many drugs. And most importantly, have fun. You might be surprised just how many of the people around you regularly experiment. If you are opposed to drugs, don't do them. But I would suggest trying to keep an open mind to what they can offer you, which is primarily a shift in consciousness. You get to see the world in a slightly different way and for some, it can be life-altering. Many people have had profound experiences (including myself) by experimenting with a variety of drugs. And I didn't start until my late '20s, because I was one of those "freaked out by the thought of drugs" people. Final tip: if you really want to play, here's the perfect way to do it: go to a concert, take a friend and share a joint together. (Obviously, it should be legal to smoke pot where you live.) I think you might be surprised by the way you experience the show. I'm willing to wager you'll never watch a show again without being stoned.
paul9290 17y ago
Each to his own and for me it's about living and enjoying life to the fullest and safest. You can always sit on the sidelines and play it safe; whatever floats your boat. That's not me! Mary Jane for me is no big deal, though I don't use it anymore. In college I enjoyed it with friends weekly; it was fun and it even landed me a job at a major record label out of college; jump started that career and made me 3 out 100 in my music biz degree to land such a job! Though I no longer participate or smoke it had a great positive impact on my life and it was hell of a lot of fun! It's boring now to me and I have out grown it!
jacoblyles 17y ago
For someone whose main preaching is a religion of caution and skepticism, you speak with a lot of moral certainty. Why should holding a very common view (which probably not a lot of thought went into) make a person a "horrible human being"? I even allow that some of the people that disagree with us might have good reasons for doing so. Should I excise a person from the company of "the good guys" because one of his family members went through a horrible experience with illegal drugs? Or should I condemn him because he lives in a community where nearly everyone thinks drugs should be illegal and he lacks the two-plus sigma IQ often needed to disagree with the whole of society? By such standards, the world is full of monsters. While I stop short of endorsing full-fledged moral relativism, I do think a little humility in judging the moral worth of others is a (rare) virtue. This is especially true on the interwebs, where separating the sheep from the goats is a favorite pastime of each little ego.
- uriel 17y ago
  Anyone that supports drug prohibition is either extremely ignorant, extremely stupid, or extremely evil, or some combination of thereof. A brief look at any history book covering alcohol prohibition should be more than enough to convince any reasonable and honest person that drug legalization is a moral imperative.
  - jacoblyles 17y ago
    Labeling those who disagree with you as "evil" and "stupid" is usually a poor way of convincing them to see things your way, and in general is a poor way of relating to your fellow human beings. This is a sentiment that is usually agreed to in the abstract, but is often shunned in practice. But don't worry, you're really, really right and you can be 100% sure of that, so it's okay if we jettison the trappings of civilized discourse.
- Eliezer 17y ago
  Okay, you're right. I amend my statement to read that people who support drug criminalization are either horrible human beings, or stupid human beings who haven't spent much time thinking about who their righteous opinions might hurt in real life, and who as voters are directly partially responsible for the said pain. Is that an excuse? I suppose it's better than causing the pain on purpose.
Confusion 17y ago
Singling out the few substances people have been taking on purpose, in addition to their regular diet, to obtain certain effects, is a poor way of identifying chemicals that should be avoided because they are 'drugs'. It is simply an absurd definition of 'drugs'. You take drugs everyday, in large doses, with your regular diet. Change your diet and you change, for the better or the worse, because there are some substances you suddenly take in much more or much less. Not too mention all the stuff that's in our regular drinking water: instead of avoiding pot, I'd start by avoiding tap water.
jacquesm 17y ago
I agree with you very very much. I figure the only asset I've got going for me is my brain and I refuse to risk it without a really good reason. No drugs, no alcohol, no nicotine for me. What's gone in the brain tends to be gone forever, and forever is a long long time. Decriminalization of drugs is a really good thing though. If all the money that went into this silly 'war' (another nice example of a word that has been stretched beyond its original meaning) on drugs was put to good use then jails would be less full and people would be less scared for doing something relatively innocent. Where to draw the line ? Harddrugs ? Drug pushing ? Hard to tell. But it's too easy to make someone a criminal right now and that ought to change. When a good sized portion of the population is in jail for something that you can argue is much less severe than consuming a nights out of alcohol there is a change to be made.

by Eliezer 17y ago

zimbabwe 17y ago

Elizer, I'm going to respond to you not because I disagree with what you said, but because you stated concisely the view that's opposite the one I hold, and I figure it might be neat to provide the foil view. I don't hold my mind's current state sacrosanct. That is to say, I respect my mind incredibly, but I don't have any belief that says my mind was built the way it was for a reason, or that there's something wrong with experimenting with it. That doesn't mean I abuse it incredibly, but I'm fine with drugs and find the infrequent experiences I have with them to be worth the negligible cost they have on my mind. I won't say "drugs are good" because I think it's stupid to assign a moral value to drugs either way. Hence, the idea that the brain should be preserved and altering chemicals avoided isn't one that I find offensive in the least. But it's worth pointing out the beneficial effects they can have on you. For one thing, realizing the limits of your perception can be fascinating. Weed doesn't have that effect on me so much, but alcohol and salvia both certainly made me realize things I wouldn't have realized otherwise. Alcohol's emotional effects certainly taught me that our moods are tenuous and that we shouldn't equate our emotional states to any sort of logical truth about the world. Regarding weed and dulled intelligence - yes, I feel like that sometimes. I feel like that without using weed. Right now I'm in an emotive state where I feel like I'm going to grow fat and die without ever moving. Weed has nothing to do with those downer feelings. Since I first took weed, though, last February, I wrote a novel, designed a handful of web sites that I'm proud of, finished a few projects, etc., and I did it in between infrequent weed hits. It's worth pointing out that many great artists were users - Miles Davis and heroin most famously - and that using drugs doesn't instantly make you less creative. It might make you creative in a different way, but creativity is not something which can be gained and lost. It is a potential that we all have regardless of intelligence. Think of it more as a muscle than as a trait. We're affected by chemicals no matter how we live. You live your life according to a mixture of fats, proteins, carbohydrates, and nutrients. In my mind, worrying too much about weed is like worrying about eating fats - it's certainly possible that if you take too much, there'll be adverse effects, but assuming that a single contact with a substance will change you forever is silly. Regarding the initial question, though, hacking on weed probably won't work too well. Weed affects the sort of focus you'd need. (For certain other activities, however, like playing music, weed can help. It's not a black-and-white all-or-nothing deal.) My advice would be to try it, since you can't really be hurt trying, but if you decide not to then all power to you.

lionhearted 17y ago
I did a heck of a lot of research before I tried drugs at age 19, and then had a lot of fun on drugs for a few years before giving it all up entirely. My main issue with most drugs is that you can get most of the positive effects of the less addictive drugs with training, without the nasty side effects. My favorite was hashish, which I found cleaner and more clear thinking than marijuana, though it's less readily available in America. I did most of my using in Amsterdam. The exception is probably hallucinogens, which offer some interesting experiences that are probably hard to get elsewhere, and there's some that are largely harmless. I'd advise anyone to be really, really careful about the drugs that are both chemically addictive and tolerance building. Chemically addictive means withdrawal symptoms if you're not using, tolerance building means you need progressively more not to get to the same point. Nicotine, actually, probably gives you the least bang for your buck with a pretty brutal chem addictive/tolerance building mix. Anything that does similar you need to be wary about. As for the most commonly used things - alcohol and THC (marijuana, hash) - you really, really can get the lower inhibitions, relaxation, creativity, etc. with some mental training. Quitting alcohol was surprisingly easy for me because eventually, I was doing much worse socially on it than without it. When you're comfortable saying and doing what you think sober, alcohol just messes up your reaction times and coordination and makes you fat and sick. The hardest part about quitting was the social aspect, but after about six months when people got the message that I was really done, that fell off too. I always tell everyone drink around me, use, whatever you please, but it's surprising how many of my friends who go out with me eventually quit. It's like a hell of a lot people drink because they're expected to more than because they actually like the effects.
- zimbabwe 17y ago
  Excellent points all. Anybody who wants to use social drugs should take a look at meditation and self-hypnosis, because you can get the same emotional states that you'd get with drugs through a little practice. As lionhearted mentioned, hallucinogens are the one exception.
  - elai 17y ago
    I know its very unhealthy, but how about sleep deprivation or fevers? I've never really hallucinated, so I wouldn't know.

bprater 17y ago

Agreed, pot is a psychoactive drug and it does affect everyone in a unique way. In fact, all drugs are going to play with everyone's brains in unique ways. Personally, I don't hack while high, I've never found it helpful. Others will have a different experience, because their brains are wired differently than mine. If you've wanted to experiment with drugs and aren't sure how to start, here are a few tips that have helped me. (For those of you headed to Burning Man, this could be useful!) One: read up or talk to someone about the effects a drug might have on you. (Google 'erowid'.) Make sure it's something you can tolerate and want to do. Allow yourself to be prepared for it's effects. Psychedelics like LSD or mushrooms can be an overwhelming experience. Don't be scared; just be prepared. Drugs last a finite amount of time and then you are back to exactly who you are now. Two: make sure that wherever you get the drugs from, it's as reputable as possible. For instance, in Amsterdam, it's popular to test Ecstasy after purchase and prior to consumption. Three: initially take drugs with a experienced guide. A guide They will help with dosage and proper consumptive techniques. They will be able to help you if things are getting intense or if you need to talk. Four: Never, ever try drugs at a random party around people you don't know. And never allow peer pressure to push you into trying something you don't want to do. (You'll know you are around the right people to experiment with, because you'll never be pressured. They will understand.) Five: don't do drugs when you are at an emotional low in your life. This is how addictions occur. People find that life inside the drug "bubble" is better than real world. I know people who have played with heroin and are not addicts. Six: Don't overdo it. Take it slow. It can take time for you to experience the subtleness of many drugs. And most importantly, have fun. You might be surprised just how many of the people around you regularly experiment. If you are opposed to drugs, don't do them. But I would suggest trying to keep an open mind to what they can offer you, which is primarily a shift in consciousness. You get to see the world in a slightly different way and for some, it can be life-altering. Many people have had profound experiences (including myself) by experimenting with a variety of drugs. And I didn't start until my late '20s, because I was one of those "freaked out by the thought of drugs" people. Final tip: if you really want to play, here's the perfect way to do it: go to a concert, take a friend and share a joint together. (Obviously, it should be legal to smoke pot where you live.) I think you might be surprised by the way you experience the show. I'm willing to wager you'll never watch a show again without being stoned.

paul9290 17y ago

Each to his own and for me it's about living and enjoying life to the fullest and safest. You can always sit on the sidelines and play it safe; whatever floats your boat. That's not me! Mary Jane for me is no big deal, though I don't use it anymore. In college I enjoyed it with friends weekly; it was fun and it even landed me a job at a major record label out of college; jump started that career and made me 3 out 100 in my music biz degree to land such a job! Though I no longer participate or smoke it had a great positive impact on my life and it was hell of a lot of fun! It's boring now to me and I have out grown it!

jacoblyles 17y ago

For someone whose main preaching is a religion of caution and skepticism, you speak with a lot of moral certainty. Why should holding a very common view (which probably not a lot of thought went into) make a person a "horrible human being"? I even allow that some of the people that disagree with us might have good reasons for doing so. Should I excise a person from the company of "the good guys" because one of his family members went through a horrible experience with illegal drugs? Or should I condemn him because he lives in a community where nearly everyone thinks drugs should be illegal and he lacks the two-plus sigma IQ often needed to disagree with the whole of society? By such standards, the world is full of monsters. While I stop short of endorsing full-fledged moral relativism, I do think a little humility in judging the moral worth of others is a (rare) virtue. This is especially true on the interwebs, where separating the sheep from the goats is a favorite pastime of each little ego.

uriel 17y ago
Anyone that supports drug prohibition is either extremely ignorant, extremely stupid, or extremely evil, or some combination of thereof. A brief look at any history book covering alcohol prohibition should be more than enough to convince any reasonable and honest person that drug legalization is a moral imperative.
- jacoblyles 17y ago
  Labeling those who disagree with you as "evil" and "stupid" is usually a poor way of convincing them to see things your way, and in general is a poor way of relating to your fellow human beings. This is a sentiment that is usually agreed to in the abstract, but is often shunned in practice. But don't worry, you're really, really right and you can be 100% sure of that, so it's okay if we jettison the trappings of civilized discourse.
Eliezer 17y ago
Okay, you're right. I amend my statement to read that people who support drug criminalization are either horrible human beings, or stupid human beings who haven't spent much time thinking about who their righteous opinions might hurt in real life, and who as voters are directly partially responsible for the said pain. Is that an excuse? I suppose it's better than causing the pain on purpose.

Confusion 17y ago

Singling out the few substances people have been taking on purpose, in addition to their regular diet, to obtain certain effects, is a poor way of identifying chemicals that should be avoided because they are 'drugs'. It is simply an absurd definition of 'drugs'. You take drugs everyday, in large doses, with your regular diet. Change your diet and you change, for the better or the worse, because there are some substances you suddenly take in much more or much less. Not too mention all the stuff that's in our regular drinking water: instead of avoiding pot, I'd start by avoiding tap water.

jacquesm 17y ago

I agree with you very very much. I figure the only asset I've got going for me is my brain and I refuse to risk it without a really good reason. No drugs, no alcohol, no nicotine for me. What's gone in the brain tends to be gone forever, and forever is a long long time. Decriminalization of drugs is a really good thing though. If all the money that went into this silly 'war' (another nice example of a word that has been stretched beyond its original meaning) on drugs was put to good use then jails would be less full and people would be less scared for doing something relatively innocent. Where to draw the line ? Harddrugs ? Drug pushing ? Hard to tell. But it's too easy to make someone a criminal right now and that ought to change. When a good sized portion of the population is in jail for something that you can argue is much less severe than consuming a nights out of alcohol there is a change to be made.