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I've never understood the idea that math is not necessary for software development... It bothers me, math is not just useful but just taken for granted... point

by taf2 13y ago

I've never understood the idea that math is not necessary for software development... It bothers me, math is not just useful but just taken for granted... pointer offsets require addition, looping requires counting - doing useful things in software almost always requires math... it might be super simple math, but it's math... Also typically the hard problems the ones that people will benefit from in software does require advanced math, e.g. machine learning. If you're chugging out html or css maybe you have used math to calculate an offset? If you're working in a database maybe you've thought about the intersection of a set of two related collections of data? Math is used and pretty darn necessary for programming. You are probably just taking it for granted.

esrauch 13y ago
It seems obvious that the discussion here is about college level (or late highschool level) math, not elementary school arithmetic. Your response is a little bit like an article saying "studying literature isn't necessary to be a good software engineer" and someone replying "reading and writing names and 1-sentence comments is still reading and writing".
Crito 13y ago
The extent that math is directly involved in html and css is a pretty weak; I don't see it as justification for the "math being necessary" idea for programming. At least not anymore than "math is necessary" to be a cashier or truck driver. It certainly isn't "construction worker" level math. However I do think math is beneficial, verging on required, but that is because studying math (beyond just arithmetic) exercises a sort of problem solving skill that I find very similar to what is often encountered in programming.
- Shorel 13y ago
  Unless you add JavaScript, writing HTML and CSS is not programming, IMO.
dominotw 13y ago
> pointer offsets require addition, looping requires counting - doing useful things in software almost always requires math... it might be super simple math, but it's math Thats grade school arithmetic nothing to do with what is usually considered math ( cliche about mathematicians struggling to calculate tip ). Math is about creating abstractions and using those abstraction to build even bigger abstractions much like software development.
gh02t 13y ago
While arithmetic is almost undeniably necessary for programming (and even some more advanced topics like basic linear algebra), I think the core argument here is more about "higher" math. Stuff like how to reason about abstraction and prove statements or more technical details like how to confront round off error. I'd say these are essential skills for me, but I can see why some might see them as unnecessary.
pstack 13y ago
Exactly. I think people get hung up over what level of math and what type of programming. Sure, you use general math in almost all programming. Up to basic algebra and maybe a little more. I've done well enough for myself, but never received more than a basic junior high algebra class. Of course, I'm not writing cryptographic systems, graphic engines, or some sort of predictive engine, either. Others, say John Carmack, need an obscene amount of match knowledge (among other things).
untog 13y ago
But math beyond that is what we're talking about. I an am accomplished programmer but I never 'got' math in my later years of high school - whether it was the teacher or me I don't know, but trigonometry and the like are still somewhat of a mystery to me. But it hasn't really impacted me as a developer. I think there's a separation between specific mathematical concepts and logic - I get the latter, but not the former.
- nbouscal 13y ago
  You can't possibly know whether it has impacted you as a developer, because you don't know what "you with more math" would be like as a developer. You can say that you're doing fine in spite of no math background, but I don't think you can reasonably claim anything about where you would be if things were otherwise. For myself, I have experience programming with no math at all, with high school math, and with self-taught axiomatic math (I've been programming since I was quite young). I can say with certainty that every time I've learned more math, I've been able to improve as a programmer as a direct result. This even applies to relatively esoteric parts of mathematics, like category theory. I don't think anyone's claiming that you can't work as a software developer without a heavy math background. We're just saying that you can go a hell of a lot further if you take the time to learn the math.
  - untog 13y ago
    I never said that I am the best developer that I can ever be without it. After all, the title is "Math is Not Necessary for Software Development", not "Math will increase your skills at Software Development". If I had better math skills I don't doubt that it would benefit me. As it is, I've got some design skills and some product knowledge, so my broader skills just skew a little differently.
    - nbouscal 13y ago
      Your claim was: "it hasn't really impacted me as a developer." That's the claim I responded to. Also, if you read the actual article, you will see that the majority of the content is regarding whether or not math is useful for software development, not just whether or not it is necessary.

by taf2 13y ago

esrauch 13y ago

It seems obvious that the discussion here is about college level (or late highschool level) math, not elementary school arithmetic. Your response is a little bit like an article saying "studying literature isn't necessary to be a good software engineer" and someone replying "reading and writing names and 1-sentence comments is still reading and writing".

Crito 13y ago

The extent that math is directly involved in html and css is a pretty weak; I don't see it as justification for the "math being necessary" idea for programming. At least not anymore than "math is necessary" to be a cashier or truck driver. It certainly isn't "construction worker" level math. However I do think math is beneficial, verging on required, but that is because studying math (beyond just arithmetic) exercises a sort of problem solving skill that I find very similar to what is often encountered in programming.

Shorel 13y ago
Unless you add JavaScript, writing HTML and CSS is not programming, IMO.

dominotw 13y ago

> pointer offsets require addition, looping requires counting - doing useful things in software almost always requires math... it might be super simple math, but it's math Thats grade school arithmetic nothing to do with what is usually considered math ( cliche about mathematicians struggling to calculate tip ). Math is about creating abstractions and using those abstraction to build even bigger abstractions much like software development.

gh02t 13y ago

While arithmetic is almost undeniably necessary for programming (and even some more advanced topics like basic linear algebra), I think the core argument here is more about "higher" math. Stuff like how to reason about abstraction and prove statements or more technical details like how to confront round off error. I'd say these are essential skills for me, but I can see why some might see them as unnecessary.

pstack 13y ago

Exactly. I think people get hung up over what level of math and what type of programming. Sure, you use general math in almost all programming. Up to basic algebra and maybe a little more. I've done well enough for myself, but never received more than a basic junior high algebra class. Of course, I'm not writing cryptographic systems, graphic engines, or some sort of predictive engine, either. Others, say John Carmack, need an obscene amount of match knowledge (among other things).

untog 13y ago

But math beyond that is what we're talking about. I an am accomplished programmer but I never 'got' math in my later years of high school - whether it was the teacher or me I don't know, but trigonometry and the like are still somewhat of a mystery to me. But it hasn't really impacted me as a developer. I think there's a separation between specific mathematical concepts and logic - I get the latter, but not the former.

nbouscal 13y ago
You can't possibly know whether it has impacted you as a developer, because you don't know what "you with more math" would be like as a developer. You can say that you're doing fine in spite of no math background, but I don't think you can reasonably claim anything about where you would be if things were otherwise. For myself, I have experience programming with no math at all, with high school math, and with self-taught axiomatic math (I've been programming since I was quite young). I can say with certainty that every time I've learned more math, I've been able to improve as a programmer as a direct result. This even applies to relatively esoteric parts of mathematics, like category theory. I don't think anyone's claiming that you can't work as a software developer without a heavy math background. We're just saying that you can go a hell of a lot further if you take the time to learn the math.
- untog 13y ago
  I never said that I am the best developer that I can ever be without it. After all, the title is "Math is Not Necessary for Software Development", not "Math will increase your skills at Software Development". If I had better math skills I don't doubt that it would benefit me. As it is, I've got some design skills and some product knowledge, so my broader skills just skew a little differently.
  - nbouscal 13y ago
    Your claim was: "it hasn't really impacted me as a developer." That's the claim I responded to. Also, if you read the actual article, you will see that the majority of the content is regarding whether or not math is useful for software development, not just whether or not it is necessary.