7 ms·

“Dear subscriber, you are registered as a participant in a mass disturbance.”

297 points by f_salmon 13y ago

f_salmon 13y ago
Combine this story with this one [0] and guess what that means for the future of the US. [0] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/04/nsa-storing-cell-phone-records-daily-snowden http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/04/nsa-storing-cel...
malka 13y ago
The tone of this message reminds me of the game Paranoia[0] [0]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoia_(role-playing_game) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoia_(role-playing_game)
- VLM 13y ago
  The only thing that sucks about Paranoia isn't even the games fault, as the wikipedia claims, when written in the 80s it was full of dark humor and tongue in cheek jokes, but American culture has changed so much since the game was invented that it now reads more like a DHS employee manual or Fatherland Security mission statement or whatever. It should be required reading for kids, maybe college kids. See kids, this RPG is how things are now WRT security, but a generation or two ago, it was merely a punchline. Americans haven't always been cowards.
  - TeMPOraL 13y ago
    "first published in 1984" - such a nice coincidence...
  - midas007 13y ago
    Jim Morrison said it best (screaming): "You're all a bunch of fucking slaves." ... "Maybe you like being pushed around." ... "Maybe you love getting your face stuck in the shit." ... "How long is it going to last?"
    - digitalengineer 13y ago
      If we're going in that direction, how about Rage Against the Machine? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWXazVhlyxQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWXazVhlyxQ
      - TeMPOraL 13y ago
        Or to pivot a bit toward the current state of affairs worldwide, Random is Resistance - War on Error. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE6RtzwVdHI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE6RtzwVdHI
      - midas007 13y ago
        Sure, RATM too, it's in my playlist. It's just hilarious hearing Jim Morrison trying to piss off a stadium full of people on a scratchy live recording from the 70's... If it's not coprophilia, necromania, incest, then it's a political statement that doesn't make it into any B-sides. You've got to wonder how much is thrill of manipulation, cowtowing and how much is authentic political motives. (Jim Morrison obviously didn't give a fuck about much.) The Doors discography: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:bf7a74e56a23676609bc56f974df88230fd4fccb&dn=THE+DOORS+-+Discography+1965-2008+%5BMp3+320+kbps%5D+TNT+Village+&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.openbittorrent.com%3A80&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.publicbt.com%3A80&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.istole.it%3A6969&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.ccc.de%3A80&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fopen.demonii.com%3A1337 RATM discography: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:a0c51579459be3d8c3f750ec49121c171741a74d&dn=Rage+Against+the+Machine+Discography&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.openbittorrent.com%3A80&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.publicbt.com%3A80&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.istole.it%3A6969&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.ccc.de%3A80&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fopen.demonii.com%3A1337
- Ygg2 13y ago
  That reminded of a quote: "Anyone in the United States today, who isn't paranoid, must be crazy"
- leoc 13y ago
  What is your level of clearance, citizen?
ck2 13y ago
Well at least they notify first. US police would just start beating you and throwing you into pens, if you are lucky you won't get coated in pepper spray or hit by a sound cannon. Watch the DNC and RNC conventions next year for examples with their multi-million dollar taxpayer funded "security". But I guess this indicates police everywhere can now just record the phone numbers of everyone in the area to mark people for "watching".
- jasonlingx 13y ago
  > But I guess this indicates police everywhere can now just record the phone numbers of everyone in the area to mark people for "watching". Combined with the "meta-data" collected by the NSA, they can easily probalistically identify the core members of any dissident group to focus their national security efforts on.
- route66 13y ago
  > police everywhere can now just record the phone numbers I remember that the dutch police some years ago already used so called "sms-bombs" to contact mobile phone subscribers that were around a crime scene months before. It is simply inherent in the technology. You wear a mobile phone? (not even smart) So you are traceable with all consequences. The solution? In any case not technical in nature. We will see.
  - f_salmon 13y ago
    There is only 1 real solution: Put your cell phone in flight mode and use it exclusively as a PDA/music player/etc. Let people contact you on a landline and email - more than enough.
    - XorNot 13y ago
      I'm pretty sure this doesn't work. i.e. even in flight mode, the baseband processor is still powered and will passively listen for cell-tower requests, so presumably it can still be told to wake up? I know its true of phones that are "off" without the battery removed - stands to reason it applies in flight mode too.
apostlion 13y ago
It's amazing people don't understand this is an elaborate mass prank. Pirate base stations have been present in the area since the disturbances began, already being used for nefarious purposes before (SMS/money transfer fraud and so on). Whoever operates these is a petty criminal, not a nefarious government – if I'd have an opportunity to send thousands of protesters anything I want, I'm sure I'd pull a prank like this as well.
- sdfjkl 13y ago
  Do you have any sources for that claim?
- gtaylor 13y ago
  A healthy sense of skepticism is helpful in cases like this (both ways). Do you have a source to share to show how this specific instance was a prank? I wouldn't put anything past the Ukranian government now, and they could have just as easily sent the message themselves.
  - apostlion 13y ago
    This specific instance might or might not have been. I'm just telling you that the pirate base stations have been operating in the Maidan area and have been used for nefarious purposes since November at least. Knowing some of the petty phreaking criminals that do stuff like this, I assumed that it's much more likely to be a prank.
- streetnigga 13y ago
  The fatal flaw is that you have to believe they would stop trying to make money in order to partake in a profitless operation that has military attention. Aside from that, sure why not? Prank.
  - apostlion 13y ago
    What do you mean by “military attention”?
dzhiurgis 13y ago
It would be interesting to conduct a survey whether people agree to 'dissent detection by use of technology'. I wonder how opinions between laymen, politicians or religious people would differ. I think the toughest part would be ensuring survey is not too suggestive and respondents are not lying.
kybernetyk 13y ago
German police have been doing this for some time already with anti-nazi protesters: https://www.eff.org/issues/mandatory-data-retention/germany https://www.eff.org/issues/mandatory-data-retention/germany (search for dresden) And in a case of luxury car arsons: http://www.businessinsider.com/berlin-arson-cell-phones-2012-1 http://www.businessinsider.com/berlin-arson-cell-phones-2012... So the only new thing here is that the protesters got notified.
- ItendToDisagree 13y ago
  Anti-Nazi protestors? Or Nazi protestors? I'm confused by this, it was my impressing that being a nazi (neo-nazi) sympathizer in Germany was illegal in the first place. Seems like a weird group to be angry about if they are Anti-Nazi protestors as the page claims. Is that incorrect?
  - kybernetyk 13y ago
    Anti-Nazi. There's some light(?) political right bias in some parts of the German police. I'm not saying that german cops generally are nazi sympathisers but you're more likely to meet a right leaning cop than a leftist one.
sdfjkl 13y ago
I wonder if this doesn't encourage people. I mean, they're unhappy with an increasingly oppressive government - won't showing them just how oppressive it can be just tell them they're doing the right thing here? This would be doubly interesting if the message really came from spoofed base stations as apostlion claims.
- weland 13y ago
  It will show them just how oppressive it is. After enough killings and beatings, however, they will not be so sure they're doing the right thing here. Source: lived in a totalitarian state. The guys who can kill and maim without being held responsible have little reason to fear the masses, as long as they can put up enough violence to contain them.
gtaylor 13y ago
Setting aside the validity debate for a moment, this is unsettling to me (as a US citizen) in that we all know the US has the ability to use their monitoring data to do this very thing (and much more), so should they choose. The big difference is that the Ukranian government yanked too many civil liberties and rights too soon instead of the gradual removal that we've got going on over here. As you watch this unfold (fellow US citizens), remember that we are not so far removed from what you are seeing streamed your way. I hope that spooks you as much as it spooks me.
spindritf 13y ago
This is just a cellular version of a guy with a megaphone calling on people to disperse. BTS is the megaphone. The problem is not in the technology. It isn't even all that useful to the regime. They already know where the protesters are. The problem, as always, is in the baton they hold in the other hand.
- higherpurpose 13y ago
  I disagree. When they use a megaphone they don't know who the people are, as they are telling them to disperse. Now they have exact lists of who participated. Every person's name is in that list. They can target them individually one by one, home by home, if the revolution fails to overthrow the government, now. Also, when you build authoritarian systems, they are going to be used by authoritarians, sooner or later. It's like saying it's ok to have a censorship infrastructure, like the Great Firewall, as long as it's not owned by the people with "batons in their hands", sort of speak. Yeah, except that once you have a system that is an authoritarian's dream, it seems pretty damn hard to stop people like that from abusing it. And ultimately, you can only stop them with revolutions - violent revolutions, in most cases. I'd rather people wouldn't have to go that far to not be oppressed by their government.
  - spindritf 13y ago
    When they use a megaphone they don't know who the people are Of course they do. Communists had been kicking people out of universities, withholding passports from protesters, and organizing mass internments back in the 80s and before. They'd take pictures and ask around the opposition circles. Or arrest a few people and make them give up the rest. Not to mention willing, paid, or coerced informers planted in the invigilated organizations. And you can bet many people working for security forces in Ukraine today remember those times and techniques well. There have been authoritarian regimes as far back as written history goes. We here like the tech angle, but let's not attach too much weight to it. It's a great story, I upvoted, but technology is not crucial.
    - ctdonath 13y ago
hawkharris 13y ago
For those who want to learn about this issue through an investigative news story instead of one of Vice's opinion pieces: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jan/21/ukraine-protesters-being-spied-on-cell-phones/ http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jan/21/ukraine-prot...
calgoo 13y ago
We have similar anti demonstration laws in Spain. We have to ask for permission from the government to demonstrate against the government. If you don't have the signed paper, you can be thrown in jail or get huge fines. This shit is getting scary, as they are slowly removing our rights. Only difference now is that they don't really hide it anymore as they don't care.
genericuser 13y ago
So basically leave your cell phone at home, if you plan on being near a protest especially if you are going to be participating? Cameras that are not attached to phones I suppose will become more popular at protests anywhere such a system is in place.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
gerbal 13y ago
"To a surrounded enemy, you must leave a way of escape" * Sun Tzu(544-496 BC), The art of war. >This does not mean that the enemy is to be allowed to escape. The object, as Tu Mu puts it, is "to make him believe that there is a road to safety, and thus prevent his fighting with the courage of despair." Tu Mu adds pleasantly: "After that, you may crush him."
vitalique 13y ago
That happened yesterday, and at least two major Ukrainian mobile operators stated [1,2] that they have nothing to do with these SMS broadcasts and that pirate base stations were probably used in the area of the disturbance. [1] Kyivstar FB page: https://www.facebook.com/kyivstar https://www.facebook.com/kyivstar (Ukrainian) [2] MTS Ukraine FB page: https://www.facebook.com/MTSUkraine https://www.facebook.com/MTSUkraine (Ukrainian)
beaker52 13y ago
This makes me want to get my Mass Disturbance on.
optimiz3 13y ago
Does this make sense tactically? Consequence 1: Protesters believe they are marked for the gulags, and must go "all the way". Option 2: Don't tell the protesters, but mark them for the gulags. Round them up at night when they are less likely to mount a response.
nodata 13y ago
"Always leave a way out, unless you really want to find out how hard a man can fight when he's nothing to lose." (The Wheel of Time) The reddit thread has a lot of good comments actually: http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1vtpa8/dear_subscriber_you_are_registered_as_a/ http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1vtpa8/dear_subsc...
- mrev19 13y ago
  that idea comes from art of war
  - micheljansen 13y ago
    Yep, from Sun Tzu's Art of War: "When you surround an army, leave an outlet free. Do not press a desperate foe too hard." -- http://classics.mit.edu/Tzu/artwar.html http://classics.mit.edu/Tzu/artwar.html I think this is also the first time I've heard it quoted in an appropriate context, as opposed to business blabla.
    - hga 13y ago
      Also comes up in discussing the types of ground. "Death" or "desperate" ground is where you fight at all costs, since otherwise the cost is death.
      - mrev19 13y ago
        unless you get saved by eagles
    - nodata 13y ago
      To quote coolsubmission on reddit: This does not mean that the enemy is to be allowed to escape. The object, as Tu Mu puts it, is "to make him believe that there is a road to safety, and thus prevent his fighting with the courage of despair." Tu Mu adds pleasantly: "After that, you may crush him."
    - alexeisadeski3 13y ago
sveme 13y ago
There is an upshot to this and the (over-)reliance of the surveillance state on technology - leave your cell phone at home when going to a protest or riot and never be suspected of being a participant in the first place.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
film42 13y ago
Not to take away from the story, because it's downright awful, but in Ukraine, most phones use pay as you go burner sims. That's what I used when I went there. I picked a sim card up for $1. My point is that fortunately, most of those phones are not tied to you and your social security number like phones in America.
- slug 13y ago
  Changing SIMs might be useless, since the carrier can track phones by their unique IMEI ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imei https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imei ) and when you use another SIM on the same phone to talk/chat to your friends, 'gov sigint' can use that information to get to you.
ilbe 13y ago
Ukraine is a democracy. Why not vote for the other guy next time? How does it make sense to go out and burn and break things instead.
- eswat 13y ago
  Because it isn’t really a democracy; the amount of corruption hasn’t really changed at all since The Orange Revolution[1]. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Revolution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Revolution
  - ilbe 13y ago
    From that very article, "Yushchenko was declared the official winner and with his inauguration on 23 January 2005 in Kiev, the Orange Revolution ended." Democracy worked.
    - crpatino 13y ago
      I suppose you must come from a country where rampant corruption is the norm to understand what "declared the official winner" actually means.
overhope 13y ago
Isn't some of the tracking of cellphone tower data part of the reason how Adrian Hernandez was caught?
hidden-markov 13y ago
Hey guys. For those concerned, please support ukrainians, Euromaidan is in strong need for financial donations http://www.helpeuromaidan.info/donate http://www.helpeuromaidan.info/donate
swombat 13y ago
... coming to a united kingdom or state near you soon! Edited: so soon that it's already happened: http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/12/massive-domestic-monitorning/ http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/12/massive-domestic-mo...

297 points by f_salmon 13y ago

Combine this story with this one [0] and guess what that means for the future of the US. [0] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/04/nsa-storing-cell-phone-records-daily-snowden http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/04/nsa-storing-cel...

malka 13y ago

The tone of this message reminds me of the game Paranoia[0] [0]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoia_(role-playing_game) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoia_(role-playing_game)

VLM 13y ago
The only thing that sucks about Paranoia isn't even the games fault, as the wikipedia claims, when written in the 80s it was full of dark humor and tongue in cheek jokes, but American culture has changed so much since the game was invented that it now reads more like a DHS employee manual or Fatherland Security mission statement or whatever. It should be required reading for kids, maybe college kids. See kids, this RPG is how things are now WRT security, but a generation or two ago, it was merely a punchline. Americans haven't always been cowards.
- TeMPOraL 13y ago
  "first published in 1984" - such a nice coincidence...
- midas007 13y ago
  Jim Morrison said it best (screaming): "You're all a bunch of fucking slaves." ... "Maybe you like being pushed around." ... "Maybe you love getting your face stuck in the shit." ... "How long is it going to last?"
  - digitalengineer 13y ago
    If we're going in that direction, how about Rage Against the Machine? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWXazVhlyxQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWXazVhlyxQ
    - TeMPOraL 13y ago
      Or to pivot a bit toward the current state of affairs worldwide, Random is Resistance - War on Error. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE6RtzwVdHI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE6RtzwVdHI
    - midas007 13y ago
      Sure, RATM too, it's in my playlist. It's just hilarious hearing Jim Morrison trying to piss off a stadium full of people on a scratchy live recording from the 70's... If it's not coprophilia, necromania, incest, then it's a political statement that doesn't make it into any B-sides. You've got to wonder how much is thrill of manipulation, cowtowing and how much is authentic political motives. (Jim Morrison obviously didn't give a fuck about much.) The Doors discography: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:bf7a74e56a23676609bc56f974df88230fd4fccb&dn=THE+DOORS+-+Discography+1965-2008+%5BMp3+320+kbps%5D+TNT+Village+&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.openbittorrent.com%3A80&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.publicbt.com%3A80&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.istole.it%3A6969&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.ccc.de%3A80&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fopen.demonii.com%3A1337 RATM discography: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:a0c51579459be3d8c3f750ec49121c171741a74d&dn=Rage+Against+the+Machine+Discography&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.openbittorrent.com%3A80&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.publicbt.com%3A80&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.istole.it%3A6969&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.ccc.de%3A80&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fopen.demonii.com%3A1337
Ygg2 13y ago
That reminded of a quote: "Anyone in the United States today, who isn't paranoid, must be crazy"
leoc 13y ago
What is your level of clearance, citizen?

ck2 13y ago

Well at least they notify first. US police would just start beating you and throwing you into pens, if you are lucky you won't get coated in pepper spray or hit by a sound cannon. Watch the DNC and RNC conventions next year for examples with their multi-million dollar taxpayer funded "security". But I guess this indicates police everywhere can now just record the phone numbers of everyone in the area to mark people for "watching".

jasonlingx 13y ago
> But I guess this indicates police everywhere can now just record the phone numbers of everyone in the area to mark people for "watching". Combined with the "meta-data" collected by the NSA, they can easily probalistically identify the core members of any dissident group to focus their national security efforts on.
route66 13y ago
> police everywhere can now just record the phone numbers I remember that the dutch police some years ago already used so called "sms-bombs" to contact mobile phone subscribers that were around a crime scene months before. It is simply inherent in the technology. You wear a mobile phone? (not even smart) So you are traceable with all consequences. The solution? In any case not technical in nature. We will see.
- f_salmon 13y ago
  There is only 1 real solution: Put your cell phone in flight mode and use it exclusively as a PDA/music player/etc. Let people contact you on a landline and email - more than enough.
  - XorNot 13y ago
    I'm pretty sure this doesn't work. i.e. even in flight mode, the baseband processor is still powered and will passively listen for cell-tower requests, so presumably it can still be told to wake up? I know its true of phones that are "off" without the battery removed - stands to reason it applies in flight mode too.

apostlion 13y ago

It's amazing people don't understand this is an elaborate mass prank. Pirate base stations have been present in the area since the disturbances began, already being used for nefarious purposes before (SMS/money transfer fraud and so on). Whoever operates these is a petty criminal, not a nefarious government – if I'd have an opportunity to send thousands of protesters anything I want, I'm sure I'd pull a prank like this as well.

sdfjkl 13y ago
Do you have any sources for that claim?
gtaylor 13y ago
A healthy sense of skepticism is helpful in cases like this (both ways). Do you have a source to share to show how this specific instance was a prank? I wouldn't put anything past the Ukranian government now, and they could have just as easily sent the message themselves.
- apostlion 13y ago
  This specific instance might or might not have been. I'm just telling you that the pirate base stations have been operating in the Maidan area and have been used for nefarious purposes since November at least. Knowing some of the petty phreaking criminals that do stuff like this, I assumed that it's much more likely to be a prank.
streetnigga 13y ago
The fatal flaw is that you have to believe they would stop trying to make money in order to partake in a profitless operation that has military attention. Aside from that, sure why not? Prank.
- apostlion 13y ago
  What do you mean by “military attention”?

dzhiurgis 13y ago

It would be interesting to conduct a survey whether people agree to 'dissent detection by use of technology'. I wonder how opinions between laymen, politicians or religious people would differ. I think the toughest part would be ensuring survey is not too suggestive and respondents are not lying.

kybernetyk 13y ago

German police have been doing this for some time already with anti-nazi protesters: https://www.eff.org/issues/mandatory-data-retention/germany https://www.eff.org/issues/mandatory-data-retention/germany (search for dresden) And in a case of luxury car arsons: http://www.businessinsider.com/berlin-arson-cell-phones-2012-1 http://www.businessinsider.com/berlin-arson-cell-phones-2012... So the only new thing here is that the protesters got notified.

ItendToDisagree 13y ago
Anti-Nazi protestors? Or Nazi protestors? I'm confused by this, it was my impressing that being a nazi (neo-nazi) sympathizer in Germany was illegal in the first place. Seems like a weird group to be angry about if they are Anti-Nazi protestors as the page claims. Is that incorrect?
- kybernetyk 13y ago
  Anti-Nazi. There's some light(?) political right bias in some parts of the German police. I'm not saying that german cops generally are nazi sympathisers but you're more likely to meet a right leaning cop than a leftist one.

sdfjkl 13y ago

I wonder if this doesn't encourage people. I mean, they're unhappy with an increasingly oppressive government - won't showing them just how oppressive it can be just tell them they're doing the right thing here? This would be doubly interesting if the message really came from spoofed base stations as apostlion claims.

weland 13y ago
It will show them just how oppressive it is. After enough killings and beatings, however, they will not be so sure they're doing the right thing here. Source: lived in a totalitarian state. The guys who can kill and maim without being held responsible have little reason to fear the masses, as long as they can put up enough violence to contain them.

gtaylor 13y ago

Setting aside the validity debate for a moment, this is unsettling to me (as a US citizen) in that we all know the US has the ability to use their monitoring data to do this very thing (and much more), so should they choose. The big difference is that the Ukranian government yanked too many civil liberties and rights too soon instead of the gradual removal that we've got going on over here. As you watch this unfold (fellow US citizens), remember that we are not so far removed from what you are seeing streamed your way. I hope that spooks you as much as it spooks me.

spindritf 13y ago

This is just a cellular version of a guy with a megaphone calling on people to disperse. BTS is the megaphone. The problem is not in the technology. It isn't even all that useful to the regime. They already know where the protesters are. The problem, as always, is in the baton they hold in the other hand.

higherpurpose 13y ago
I disagree. When they use a megaphone they don't know who the people are, as they are telling them to disperse. Now they have exact lists of who participated. Every person's name is in that list. They can target them individually one by one, home by home, if the revolution fails to overthrow the government, now. Also, when you build authoritarian systems, they are going to be used by authoritarians, sooner or later. It's like saying it's ok to have a censorship infrastructure, like the Great Firewall, as long as it's not owned by the people with "batons in their hands", sort of speak. Yeah, except that once you have a system that is an authoritarian's dream, it seems pretty damn hard to stop people like that from abusing it. And ultimately, you can only stop them with revolutions - violent revolutions, in most cases. I'd rather people wouldn't have to go that far to not be oppressed by their government.
- spindritf 13y ago
  When they use a megaphone they don't know who the people are Of course they do. Communists had been kicking people out of universities, withholding passports from protesters, and organizing mass internments back in the 80s and before. They'd take pictures and ask around the opposition circles. Or arrest a few people and make them give up the rest. Not to mention willing, paid, or coerced informers planted in the invigilated organizations. And you can bet many people working for security forces in Ukraine today remember those times and techniques well. There have been authoritarian regimes as far back as written history goes. We here like the tech angle, but let's not attach too much weight to it. It's a great story, I upvoted, but technology is not crucial.
  - ctdonath 13y ago

hawkharris 13y ago

For those who want to learn about this issue through an investigative news story instead of one of Vice's opinion pieces: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jan/21/ukraine-protesters-being-spied-on-cell-phones/ http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jan/21/ukraine-prot...

calgoo 13y ago

We have similar anti demonstration laws in Spain. We have to ask for permission from the government to demonstrate against the government. If you don't have the signed paper, you can be thrown in jail or get huge fines. This shit is getting scary, as they are slowly removing our rights. Only difference now is that they don't really hide it anymore as they don't care.

genericuser 13y ago

So basically leave your cell phone at home, if you plan on being near a protest especially if you are going to be participating? Cameras that are not attached to phones I suppose will become more popular at protests anywhere such a system is in place.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

gerbal 13y ago

"To a surrounded enemy, you must leave a way of escape" * Sun Tzu(544-496 BC), The art of war. >This does not mean that the enemy is to be allowed to escape. The object, as Tu Mu puts it, is "to make him believe that there is a road to safety, and thus prevent his fighting with the courage of despair." Tu Mu adds pleasantly: "After that, you may crush him."

vitalique 13y ago

That happened yesterday, and at least two major Ukrainian mobile operators stated [1,2] that they have nothing to do with these SMS broadcasts and that pirate base stations were probably used in the area of the disturbance. [1] Kyivstar FB page: https://www.facebook.com/kyivstar https://www.facebook.com/kyivstar (Ukrainian) [2] MTS Ukraine FB page: https://www.facebook.com/MTSUkraine https://www.facebook.com/MTSUkraine (Ukrainian)

beaker52 13y ago

This makes me want to get my Mass Disturbance on.

optimiz3 13y ago

Does this make sense tactically? Consequence 1: Protesters believe they are marked for the gulags, and must go "all the way". Option 2: Don't tell the protesters, but mark them for the gulags. Round them up at night when they are less likely to mount a response.

nodata 13y ago

"Always leave a way out, unless you really want to find out how hard a man can fight when he's nothing to lose." (The Wheel of Time) The reddit thread has a lot of good comments actually: http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1vtpa8/dear_subscriber_you_are_registered_as_a/ http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1vtpa8/dear_subsc...

mrev19 13y ago
that idea comes from art of war
- micheljansen 13y ago
  Yep, from Sun Tzu's Art of War: "When you surround an army, leave an outlet free. Do not press a desperate foe too hard." -- http://classics.mit.edu/Tzu/artwar.html http://classics.mit.edu/Tzu/artwar.html I think this is also the first time I've heard it quoted in an appropriate context, as opposed to business blabla.
  - hga 13y ago
    Also comes up in discussing the types of ground. "Death" or "desperate" ground is where you fight at all costs, since otherwise the cost is death.
    - mrev19 13y ago
      unless you get saved by eagles
  - nodata 13y ago
    To quote coolsubmission on reddit: This does not mean that the enemy is to be allowed to escape. The object, as Tu Mu puts it, is "to make him believe that there is a road to safety, and thus prevent his fighting with the courage of despair." Tu Mu adds pleasantly: "After that, you may crush him."
  - alexeisadeski3 13y ago

sveme 13y ago

There is an upshot to this and the (over-)reliance of the surveillance state on technology - leave your cell phone at home when going to a protest or riot and never be suspected of being a participant in the first place.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

film42 13y ago

Not to take away from the story, because it's downright awful, but in Ukraine, most phones use pay as you go burner sims. That's what I used when I went there. I picked a sim card up for $1. My point is that fortunately, most of those phones are not tied to you and your social security number like phones in America.

slug 13y ago
Changing SIMs might be useless, since the carrier can track phones by their unique IMEI ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imei https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imei ) and when you use another SIM on the same phone to talk/chat to your friends, 'gov sigint' can use that information to get to you.

ilbe 13y ago

Ukraine is a democracy. Why not vote for the other guy next time? How does it make sense to go out and burn and break things instead.

eswat 13y ago
Because it isn’t really a democracy; the amount of corruption hasn’t really changed at all since The Orange Revolution[1]. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Revolution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Revolution
- ilbe 13y ago
  From that very article, "Yushchenko was declared the official winner and with his inauguration on 23 January 2005 in Kiev, the Orange Revolution ended." Democracy worked.
  - crpatino 13y ago
    I suppose you must come from a country where rampant corruption is the norm to understand what "declared the official winner" actually means.

overhope 13y ago

Isn't some of the tracking of cellphone tower data part of the reason how Adrian Hernandez was caught?

hidden-markov 13y ago

Hey guys. For those concerned, please support ukrainians, Euromaidan is in strong need for financial donations http://www.helpeuromaidan.info/donate http://www.helpeuromaidan.info/donate

swombat 13y ago

... coming to a united kingdom or state near you soon! Edited: so soon that it's already happened: http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/12/massive-domestic-monitorning/ http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/12/massive-domestic-mo...