7 ms·

Germany's Privacy Stance Boosts Berlin's Tech Startups

82 points by lelf 13y ago

junto 13y ago
I think there are some small green shoots in Berlin, but I'm not sure whether it is anything to write home about. It is true that Germans are more privacy conscious. Yesterday for example, the Federal Bureau of Information Technology (BSI) launched a tool that allowed Germans the possibility to see if they are 1 of the 16 million identities recovered from a botnet analysis project. Although the site went down after it was featured on the nightly national news, it shows that the German government is actively encouraging and publicizing privacy and crime related issues affecting the German public. http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiegel.de%2Fnetzwelt%2Fweb%2Fbsi-warnt-vor-identitaetsdiebstahl-16-millionen-nutzerkonten-betroffen-a-944643.html http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=... Of course it doesn't address the issues of the EU data retention laws and the access that the BND have to access email whenever they feel like it. Also, the recent "efforts" of the largest internet service providers in Germany to encrypt email transport between each other has been seen as more of a publicity stunt then anything of any real value concerning privacy. Emails are still unencrypted when stored.
- sentenza 13y ago
  You are aware that Berlin isn't the biggest IT/software cluster in Germany? There are a lot more companies with a lot more revenue in the Rhein-Main-Neckar area[1](pdf, image page 3). It's just that the "sexy, webby" stuff is in Berlin, so it has more visibility. [1] http://www.softwareclusterbenchmark.eu/images/images/Downloads/EU-Softwarecluster-Benchmark_2013_en.pdf http://www.softwareclusterbenchmark.eu/images/images/Downloa...
frenger 13y ago
I know this is why I use Wunderlist (Berlin), rather than RTM or Things or similar (USA) - I'm more comfortable under their local privacy obligations. (In reality I don't know how much difference it makes?)
- WA 13y ago
  In reality it depends on at least two things: 1. Is their team capable of securing their environment and releasing code that isn't vulnerable to data theft attacks? 2. Do they also store all their customers' information in Germany or is it on some US-based servers?
  - Argorak 13y ago
    6wunderkinder seems to use Amazon AWS: http://aws.amazon.com/solutions/case-studies/6wunderkinder/ http://aws.amazon.com/solutions/case-studies/6wunderkinder/
    - WA 13y ago
      Interesting. Amazon AWS in Europe is hosted all over Europe, e. g. Ireland etc. They should comply to EU privacy laws, but not necessarily to Germany's privacy laws. Difficult.
      - Argorak 13y ago
        Also, US companies have to comply with the patriot act even for data centers outside of the US. EC2 in Europe is hosted in Ireland only.
        lmm 13y ago
        Like any other company operating in Europe, they're subject to punishment if they're violating EU privacy regulations. That US law obliges them to do so is no defence.
        Argorak 13y ago
        Sure, they are between a rock and a hard place in that respect. But that doesn't help you if you want to push your data somewhere out of access from the US. The company in question has to comply to the requests just as they do in the US, fine or not.
lorenzfx 13y ago
While there are some houses blurred out (I believe mostly in wealthy neighbourhoods), Google's Streetview is available in Germany.
- brazzy 13y ago
  When Google was preparing to launch Streetview in Germany, there was a big media hoo-ha about it and they reacted by givng property owners the opportunity to have their house blurred; wealth has nothing to do with it, except that the wealthy are more likely to own the property they live in and pay attention to stuff like this.
raverbashing 13y ago
Let me explain a little bit about the level of privacy in Germany. In Germany you don't put the apartment number in a letter. The mailman matches your name to the name on the mailbox to give you the letter Even when registering with the government they have what floor number you live, but not the apartment number. This is mostly because of the Stasi.
- huhtenberg 13y ago
  I don't understand how having your name plastered on a mailbox is better for your privacy.
- chmars 13y ago
  Each apartment in German has a registration number and is registered with the government. Most tenants, however, are not aware of this number since it is completely irrelevant in everyday life. And you don't put the apartment number on a letter because you usually don't know it. In addition, mailboxes at building entrances are mandatory, i.e., the postman will usually not have to look for your actual apartment.
  - morsch 13y ago
    This all seems to be a bit beside the point -- but does the apartment register you allude to also contain information about the current occupants and/or the person paying the rent? I assume it does not.
  - sdoering 13y ago
    Funny fact on this: I am an German homeowner - and I do not know the registration-number of my own property. Seems to me, that this number really does not play any role in anybodies life, except maybe some squirrels working in some government agency. Could you elaborate on this number a little bit more, as I could not find anything on it?
    - brazzy 13y ago
      https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aufteilungsplan https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aufteilungsplan If you don't know your property's ID number how would you specify that you actually own it?
chmars 13y ago
The expectation of a higher level of privacy in Germany and other European countries is usually based on a common misunderstand: Privacy does not protect against state surveillance, on the contrary: State Surveillance is always excluded from privacy laws. All European countries, in particular Germany, cooperate with the US in surveillance. And while the data privacy regulation in Europa is without any doubt much stricter in Europe than in the US, it is also very ineffective since there are usually no direct sanctions except for political cases like Google's collection of WLAN data. In addition, most start-up companies rely on American services providers. The advantage of using American service providers is simply to great to be ignored, and data privacy is rarely an issue. American service providers are usually much better at offering superior functionality at a better price.
- sentenza 13y ago
  NO. There are differences that have everyday consequences. It is illegal in Germany to share information gained by intelligence agencies with the regular police[1]. This is eroding, but we are fighting against it. State surveillance is specifically regulated in a fundamental right that is unique to Germany[2]. There are officials trying to ignore this (Autobahn toll-collection), but we are fighting against it. Most people here use American service providers, American social networks and the like. Those who are not uneasy regarding the privacy of the data are quite the minority. Many people use fake names on facebook that only their friends know (Yea, doesn't work, but they try!) and are very picky regarding the information they share. German companies with critical information are avoiding American services or, for those that were to blind to see what was coming, moving away from American services. Everybody here knows that US companies are unavoidable these days, but we are trying do do something against it. Germans are extremely suspicious of intelligence agencies and completely disapprove of data sharing with the US and UK. However, it still happens because, as a consequence of that war we lost, the Western Allies have access to our intelligence agencies. This seems to be impossible to change, but we are fighting against it. [1] http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fde.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FTrennungsgebot_zwischen_Nachrichtendiensten_und_Polizei http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informational_self-determination http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informational_self-determinatio...
f_salmon 13y ago
What exactly IS "Germany's Privacy Stance"? I'm not sure there's any real consensus on this question. Or have you all already forgotten about this story here: http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/germany-is-a-both-a-partner-to-and-a-target-of-nsa-surveillance-a-916029.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/germany-is-a-both-...
Mommo 13y ago
Hey there! This is Moritz from ZenGuard (the company behind ZenMate). We really appreciate being mentioned in the article. Shameless plug: We're currently hiring to build more great products with privacy in mind, if you're interested in joining our berlin based startup you can see the open positions here: https://zenmate.io/jobs https://zenmate.io/jobs Thanks!
igl 13y ago
Privacy? lol-wat? 1990 is over. Berlin is hyped because it's a cool city at very low costs with easy visa's.
junto 13y ago
Here is a nice little anecdote. I previously mentioned that the official German Federal Bureau of Information Technology (BSI) launched a tool [2] to help the public find out if their identities were included in the analysis of a recently cracked botnet that resulted in a database of 16 million people's identities [1]. Germans can enter their email address and you are given a result as to whether you were included or not. If you are, you are advised to assume that you computer is compromised. I told my office colleagues about this (who are German and not tin-foil hat wearers by any means), who immediately stated that they wouldn't use it because they don't trust the government not to spy on them. They specifically referenced the backdoor / trojan that was attributed to the BND back in 2011 as a case in point [3]. Personally, I think that this little story quite accurately sums up German attitudes to privacy and distrust of government. [1] https://www.bsi.bund.de/DE/Presse/Pressemitteilungen/Presse2014/Mailtest_21012014.html https://www.bsi.bund.de/DE/Presse/Pressemitteilungen/Presse2... [2] https://www.sicherheitstest.bsi.de/ https://www.sicherheitstest.bsi.de/ [3] http://theconversation.com/ein-spy-is-the-german-government-using-a-trojan-to-watch-its-citizens-3765 http://theconversation.com/ein-spy-is-the-german-government-...
- Perseids 13y ago
  I would like to add that the German distrust of government is fundamentally different to what I've come to know about the American distrust of government. We are very careful to give the government power that might be used to control the populace and further a totalitarian regime. But otherwise we have a strong government with a robust public health care system, free education (including great public universities) and reasonably good unemployment insurance. Some of that is eroding away unfortunately, but by an large Germans have a much more positive attitude regarding government organization and regulation than Americans.
  - peteretep 13y ago
    > including great public universities Citation for German universities being great?
    - 13y ago
themckman 13y ago
Certainly unrelated to the article, but I've been considering moving from the US to Germany. As I understand it, Berlin has a pretty thriving tech scene and I'm targeting it as my destination (Munich has come up, too). Anyone care to comment on how easy this might be?
- mlent 13y ago
  If you can get the job contract, it's very easy. There are a couple documents you need (e.g. work contract, local residency registration, flat contract, tax registration, proof of german health insurance [which is a special letter written from the health insurance company to the Ausländerbehörde]), but basically if you have a contract and you're a skilled worker, they'll grant you residency. The employer may have to prove, as they did with me, that no one else in the EU could fill the job as well as you can. So they'd have to put up a listing for a certain time before you could have the job. If possible, I'd arrive in Germany with a certain job offer as opposed to being sure you can find one within your three month tourist visa period. The more difficult part would be that people who work in foreigner's office and all other government offices (I had to go to at least three different offices), as a rule, don't speak English. And you'll visit the Ausländerbehörde itself at least three times, and they will give you instructions, orally, in German, on what to do/where to go next. Further, just as a rule, you will need to learn German in order to feel comfortable in your day to day life in the country and to integrate. Many tech companies say that you don't need to know German to work in Berlin -- though your workplace may operate in English, the rest of your life won't. Learning the German language is much more difficult than getting residency itself. Let me know if you have any more questions. I moved from the US to Germany for a technical job about 6 months ago so I remember full well the procedure.
  - themckman 13y ago
    I appreciate the response. I do plan on starting German classes this Spring and, also, visiting Berlin in the later Summer months. If you have any pointers on what the best way to look for work is in this situation, I'd love to hear them. I would like to connect with a few people when I'm out there and, maybe, planned on working a day or two at a local coop space (if any exist) just to meet a few people. Thanks, again.

82 points by lelf 13y ago

junto 13y ago

I think there are some small green shoots in Berlin, but I'm not sure whether it is anything to write home about. It is true that Germans are more privacy conscious. Yesterday for example, the Federal Bureau of Information Technology (BSI) launched a tool that allowed Germans the possibility to see if they are 1 of the 16 million identities recovered from a botnet analysis project. Although the site went down after it was featured on the nightly national news, it shows that the German government is actively encouraging and publicizing privacy and crime related issues affecting the German public. http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiegel.de%2Fnetzwelt%2Fweb%2Fbsi-warnt-vor-identitaetsdiebstahl-16-millionen-nutzerkonten-betroffen-a-944643.html http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=... Of course it doesn't address the issues of the EU data retention laws and the access that the BND have to access email whenever they feel like it. Also, the recent "efforts" of the largest internet service providers in Germany to encrypt email transport between each other has been seen as more of a publicity stunt then anything of any real value concerning privacy. Emails are still unencrypted when stored.

sentenza 13y ago
You are aware that Berlin isn't the biggest IT/software cluster in Germany? There are a lot more companies with a lot more revenue in the Rhein-Main-Neckar area[1](pdf, image page 3). It's just that the "sexy, webby" stuff is in Berlin, so it has more visibility. [1] http://www.softwareclusterbenchmark.eu/images/images/Downloads/EU-Softwarecluster-Benchmark_2013_en.pdf http://www.softwareclusterbenchmark.eu/images/images/Downloa...

frenger 13y ago

I know this is why I use Wunderlist (Berlin), rather than RTM or Things or similar (USA) - I'm more comfortable under their local privacy obligations. (In reality I don't know how much difference it makes?)

WA 13y ago
In reality it depends on at least two things: 1. Is their team capable of securing their environment and releasing code that isn't vulnerable to data theft attacks? 2. Do they also store all their customers' information in Germany or is it on some US-based servers?
- Argorak 13y ago
  6wunderkinder seems to use Amazon AWS: http://aws.amazon.com/solutions/case-studies/6wunderkinder/ http://aws.amazon.com/solutions/case-studies/6wunderkinder/
  - WA 13y ago
    Interesting. Amazon AWS in Europe is hosted all over Europe, e. g. Ireland etc. They should comply to EU privacy laws, but not necessarily to Germany's privacy laws. Difficult.
    - Argorak 13y ago
      Also, US companies have to comply with the patriot act even for data centers outside of the US. EC2 in Europe is hosted in Ireland only.
      - lmm 13y ago
        Like any other company operating in Europe, they're subject to punishment if they're violating EU privacy regulations. That US law obliges them to do so is no defence.
        Argorak 13y ago
        Sure, they are between a rock and a hard place in that respect. But that doesn't help you if you want to push your data somewhere out of access from the US. The company in question has to comply to the requests just as they do in the US, fine or not.

lorenzfx 13y ago

While there are some houses blurred out (I believe mostly in wealthy neighbourhoods), Google's Streetview is available in Germany.

brazzy 13y ago
When Google was preparing to launch Streetview in Germany, there was a big media hoo-ha about it and they reacted by givng property owners the opportunity to have their house blurred; wealth has nothing to do with it, except that the wealthy are more likely to own the property they live in and pay attention to stuff like this.

raverbashing 13y ago

Let me explain a little bit about the level of privacy in Germany. In Germany you don't put the apartment number in a letter. The mailman matches your name to the name on the mailbox to give you the letter Even when registering with the government they have what floor number you live, but not the apartment number. This is mostly because of the Stasi.

huhtenberg 13y ago
I don't understand how having your name plastered on a mailbox is better for your privacy.
chmars 13y ago
Each apartment in German has a registration number and is registered with the government. Most tenants, however, are not aware of this number since it is completely irrelevant in everyday life. And you don't put the apartment number on a letter because you usually don't know it. In addition, mailboxes at building entrances are mandatory, i.e., the postman will usually not have to look for your actual apartment.
- morsch 13y ago
  This all seems to be a bit beside the point -- but does the apartment register you allude to also contain information about the current occupants and/or the person paying the rent? I assume it does not.
- sdoering 13y ago
  Funny fact on this: I am an German homeowner - and I do not know the registration-number of my own property. Seems to me, that this number really does not play any role in anybodies life, except maybe some squirrels working in some government agency. Could you elaborate on this number a little bit more, as I could not find anything on it?
  - brazzy 13y ago
    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aufteilungsplan https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aufteilungsplan If you don't know your property's ID number how would you specify that you actually own it?

chmars 13y ago

The expectation of a higher level of privacy in Germany and other European countries is usually based on a common misunderstand: Privacy does not protect against state surveillance, on the contrary: State Surveillance is always excluded from privacy laws. All European countries, in particular Germany, cooperate with the US in surveillance. And while the data privacy regulation in Europa is without any doubt much stricter in Europe than in the US, it is also very ineffective since there are usually no direct sanctions except for political cases like Google's collection of WLAN data. In addition, most start-up companies rely on American services providers. The advantage of using American service providers is simply to great to be ignored, and data privacy is rarely an issue. American service providers are usually much better at offering superior functionality at a better price.

sentenza 13y ago
NO. There are differences that have everyday consequences. It is illegal in Germany to share information gained by intelligence agencies with the regular police[1]. This is eroding, but we are fighting against it. State surveillance is specifically regulated in a fundamental right that is unique to Germany[2]. There are officials trying to ignore this (Autobahn toll-collection), but we are fighting against it. Most people here use American service providers, American social networks and the like. Those who are not uneasy regarding the privacy of the data are quite the minority. Many people use fake names on facebook that only their friends know (Yea, doesn't work, but they try!) and are very picky regarding the information they share. German companies with critical information are avoiding American services or, for those that were to blind to see what was coming, moving away from American services. Everybody here knows that US companies are unavoidable these days, but we are trying do do something against it. Germans are extremely suspicious of intelligence agencies and completely disapprove of data sharing with the US and UK. However, it still happens because, as a consequence of that war we lost, the Western Allies have access to our intelligence agencies. This seems to be impossible to change, but we are fighting against it. [1] http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fde.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FTrennungsgebot_zwischen_Nachrichtendiensten_und_Polizei http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informational_self-determination http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informational_self-determinatio...

f_salmon 13y ago

What exactly IS "Germany's Privacy Stance"? I'm not sure there's any real consensus on this question. Or have you all already forgotten about this story here: http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/germany-is-a-both-a-partner-to-and-a-target-of-nsa-surveillance-a-916029.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/germany-is-a-both-...

Mommo 13y ago

Hey there! This is Moritz from ZenGuard (the company behind ZenMate). We really appreciate being mentioned in the article. Shameless plug: We're currently hiring to build more great products with privacy in mind, if you're interested in joining our berlin based startup you can see the open positions here: https://zenmate.io/jobs https://zenmate.io/jobs Thanks!

igl 13y ago

Privacy? lol-wat? 1990 is over. Berlin is hyped because it's a cool city at very low costs with easy visa's.

junto 13y ago

Here is a nice little anecdote. I previously mentioned that the official German Federal Bureau of Information Technology (BSI) launched a tool [2] to help the public find out if their identities were included in the analysis of a recently cracked botnet that resulted in a database of 16 million people's identities [1]. Germans can enter their email address and you are given a result as to whether you were included or not. If you are, you are advised to assume that you computer is compromised. I told my office colleagues about this (who are German and not tin-foil hat wearers by any means), who immediately stated that they wouldn't use it because they don't trust the government not to spy on them. They specifically referenced the backdoor / trojan that was attributed to the BND back in 2011 as a case in point [3]. Personally, I think that this little story quite accurately sums up German attitudes to privacy and distrust of government. [1] https://www.bsi.bund.de/DE/Presse/Pressemitteilungen/Presse2014/Mailtest_21012014.html https://www.bsi.bund.de/DE/Presse/Pressemitteilungen/Presse2... [2] https://www.sicherheitstest.bsi.de/ https://www.sicherheitstest.bsi.de/ [3] http://theconversation.com/ein-spy-is-the-german-government-using-a-trojan-to-watch-its-citizens-3765 http://theconversation.com/ein-spy-is-the-german-government-...

Perseids 13y ago
I would like to add that the German distrust of government is fundamentally different to what I've come to know about the American distrust of government. We are very careful to give the government power that might be used to control the populace and further a totalitarian regime. But otherwise we have a strong government with a robust public health care system, free education (including great public universities) and reasonably good unemployment insurance. Some of that is eroding away unfortunately, but by an large Germans have a much more positive attitude regarding government organization and regulation than Americans.
- peteretep 13y ago
  > including great public universities Citation for German universities being great?
  - 13y ago

themckman 13y ago

Certainly unrelated to the article, but I've been considering moving from the US to Germany. As I understand it, Berlin has a pretty thriving tech scene and I'm targeting it as my destination (Munich has come up, too). Anyone care to comment on how easy this might be?

mlent 13y ago
If you can get the job contract, it's very easy. There are a couple documents you need (e.g. work contract, local residency registration, flat contract, tax registration, proof of german health insurance [which is a special letter written from the health insurance company to the Ausländerbehörde]), but basically if you have a contract and you're a skilled worker, they'll grant you residency. The employer may have to prove, as they did with me, that no one else in the EU could fill the job as well as you can. So they'd have to put up a listing for a certain time before you could have the job. If possible, I'd arrive in Germany with a certain job offer as opposed to being sure you can find one within your three month tourist visa period. The more difficult part would be that people who work in foreigner's office and all other government offices (I had to go to at least three different offices), as a rule, don't speak English. And you'll visit the Ausländerbehörde itself at least three times, and they will give you instructions, orally, in German, on what to do/where to go next. Further, just as a rule, you will need to learn German in order to feel comfortable in your day to day life in the country and to integrate. Many tech companies say that you don't need to know German to work in Berlin -- though your workplace may operate in English, the rest of your life won't. Learning the German language is much more difficult than getting residency itself. Let me know if you have any more questions. I moved from the US to Germany for a technical job about 6 months ago so I remember full well the procedure.
- themckman 13y ago
  I appreciate the response. I do plan on starting German classes this Spring and, also, visiting Berlin in the later Summer months. If you have any pointers on what the best way to look for work is in this situation, I'd love to hear them. I would like to connect with a few people when I'm out there and, maybe, planned on working a day or two at a local coop space (if any exist) just to meet a few people. Thanks, again.