6 ms·

This thread made me want to cry..... this thread..... oh my god you guys this thread is so awful! Does anyone have ideas about what could be done to educate ag

This thread made me want to cry..... this thread..... oh my god you guys this thread is so awful! Does anyone have ideas about what could be done to educate against the constant same old "If it's just for women, it's sexism, same as if we said something was just for men" crap? I mean this is basically internet discussion canon at this point. As a side note, we COULD have a conference just for men if it was aimed (as this is) to close the gender gap in society, tech, etc. That conference would be about treating women better, how to see your own biases and avoid them, things you think are ok but aren't, etc. Nobody would go, but that would be analogous event, not an event aimed at helping male only founders found companies. Edit: I decided to write up a quick blog for public discussion outside of this thread Blog: http://istommydrunk.svbtle.com/the-maleonly-version-of-the-female-founders-conference http://istommydrunk.svbtle.com/the-maleonly-version-of-the-f... Comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7099636 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7099636 If anyone wants to find it on the front page, it's there. Expecting/getting trolls.

Crake 13y ago
>This thread made me want to cry.... Ah, estrogen privilege.
- tomasien 13y ago
  I have no idea if this is a joke or not, but I'm a male. 6'5", 210, played college basketball, male who wants to or actually does cry reading HN comments about gender issues. (I don't think my size or athletic ability has anything to do with my maleness, but given the quality of discussion going on here, I figure it may be relevant in some people's minds)
  - Crake 13y ago
    It's a sjw themed joke.
- supergauntlet 13y ago
  I wish I had enough karma to downvote you. Instead of having any actual discussion you'd rather make some low effort sarcastic shitpost to try and derail? This thread is doomed to the flamewar detector anyways, I don't suppose there's any point in trying to have decent discussion here.
- kyro 13y ago
  Who are you? I've read your comments. You claim to know the real reasons why women aren't going into tech, you reply to comments about gender/racial disparity with such simple-minded arrogance and assurance, yet your profile says you're a college student studying EE and physics. You're nothing more than the typical puffed-up ignorant college asshole who thinks he has the world figured out. Wait till all the pubes have grown in and get a few years in the real world under your belt before thinking about making such idiotic statements because as of now you have absolutely nothing of value to contribute. For a college kid in the throes of acquiring knowledge and perspective, you're pretty god damn ignorant and stubborn and just dickish on the whole. And if you're not the typical 18-22yo college kid, but rather someone a bit older, then this is all the sadder really.
  - Crake 13y ago
    Who am I? You told me what I am in your comment, so I guess I'll have to bow to your superior expertise on the matter. Interesting how you think you know all about what sort of person I am without knowing anything about my background, my life experiences, or the circumstances and fields of work that I have/have not encountered sexism in. SJWs always think they know everything about people who disagree with them, just by the virtue of the fact that the person dared to disagree. Perhaps it is for this reason that you and others of your ideological persuasion seem unable to resort to anything aside from hostile yet awfully generic (and as result--often hilariously inaccurate) personal attacks. Rude remarks and mistaken assumptions about my genitals aside, no, I am not in the 18-22 year old age range, and haven't been for some time. Sad as it may seem to you, there are indeed people of all ages who believe in egalitarianism.
    - kyro 13y ago
      Thanks for editing your profile. Anyway, you've put more thought and words in this one reply than you have in most of your recent ones in response to racial/gender/socioeconomic disparity. You've mocked the OP for crying (which was a "hilariously inaccurate personal attack" that's a joke now, apparently), and you've responded to my and others' comments with simple-minded quips. I'd have kept your age a secret.
yetanotherphd 13y ago
>Does anyone have ideas about what could be done to educate... Well the problem with debate is that everyone wants to "educate" the other side. So my idea is that you prove you are actually right, and then maybe people will accept your views.
- tomasien 13y ago
  That's actually not terrible. That's a pretty good thought framework for thinking about this problem I think.
MartinCron 13y ago
Does anyone have ideas about what could be done to educate against the constant same old "If it's just for women, it's sexism, same as if we said something was just for men" crap? I mean this is basically internet discussion canon at this point At this point, you have to believe that comments like this (along with the "why no programs to get more male teachers?" gem) are pure trolling and not people trying to express new or compelling ideas. I mean, do these guys think that they are such brilliant thinkers that they are the first ever to try apply symmetry to an asymmetrical context?
- mkdir 13y ago
  It looks like you've spent the last few months ignoring all but the worst arguments against your position. That sort of insularity doesn't help you understand the other side. > I mean, do these guys think that they are such brilliant thinkers that they are the first ever to try apply symmetry to an asymmetrical context? You need to read more charitably, because I can safely say that everyone recognizes the asymmetry. There are a couple of issues here, the first of which is that contextual asymmetry doesn't always matter. One example: Sarah and Amy walk up to John and Christopher on the playground at school. John is enjoying a strawberry ice cream cone. The two girls slap Christopher, who retaliates by slapping them both back. John, ice cream cone still in hand, yells for the teacher to come over. "Christopher!", scolds the teacher, "Slapping is wrong! Come to the office with me." "But Sarah and Amy slapped me first! Why aren't they getting in trouble?" "Because John has an ice cream cone, and you're both boys." Second, some of the asymmetry in this context is actually inconvenient for your position. A few examples: 1. Society is far more sensitive to the plight of girls than to the plight of boys. As such, it's often politically unfeasible to ever reverse a program that elevates girls at the expense of boys. For instance, there are still far more scholarships available to girls than are available to boys, despite the fact that women have outnumbered men in college for decades. 2. Boys and men are less risk-averse than girls and women, and as a result, they find themselves more numerous at both the top and the bottom of society. Programs that ignore the men not at the top of society, in favor of elevating women toward the top, end up hurting disadvantaged men. 3. STEM jobs are perhaps the only good realistic job prospect for young boys today. Programs that whisk girls ahead of boys for STEM jobs end up leaving those boys with nowhere to turn, because there is insufficient (not non-existent) political pressure to open up other opportunities for them (as point #1 above demonstrated).
adammil 13y ago
You can have a female founders conference, whose purpose is to uplift women, and allow men to be there as well. True story: I once attended a "women in tech" style conference as a hiring manager looking for potential recruits, and I won a random drawing for a prize. It was a purse with a company logo on it. Yes, it felt pretty sexist that no one expected a man would be there.
- lcc 13y ago
  I'm sorry you didn't like the prize, but is it such a stretch that prizes at a women-in-tech conference would be targeted at women in tech? You might not realize it, but women face a similar issue all the time at conferences/events where "unisex" (really men's) cut t-shirts are given out. These t-shirts are generally quite flattering on men and not-so-flattering on women, so I'd argue they're the woman's equivalent of your purse. I went to the Grace Hopper conference this year and it was very refreshing to see that every company that gave out t-shirts used female cuts, since those are t-shirts I'll actually wear!
  - cbr 13y ago
    I agree with the substance of your post, but "quite flattering" pushes a bit far.
    - msandford 13y ago
      Seriously, men's t-shirts are pretty terrible. They're designed it seems for a man who's 5'10 and 170lbs or something and then just scaled linearly in both X and Y. That's not how human beings scale, though. As a guy who's 6'3 and a bit more torso than legs I feel like I would need to be at least 250-275lbs for an XL shirt (which I need to wear so it's long enough) to not look like a sail. This isn't a problem unique to women, it's unique to anyone who's not a 5'10 170lbs man; the mannequin they designed the shirt for.
  - obstacle1 13y ago
    >You might not realize it, but women face a similar issue all the time at conferences/events where "unisex" (really men's) cut t-shirts are given out. These t-shirts are generally quite flattering on men and not-so-flattering on women, so I'd argue they're the woman's equivalent of your purse. Erm. This kind of makes a lot of assumptions about what 'flattering on women' means. Which of course begs the question about a lot of possible latent sexism at play in your response. The sorts of t-shirts given out at conferences don't fit anyone. They're generic pieces of cloth that wear like drapes. Hanes Beefy-Ts. That you think they're appropriate for men but not women kinda speaks volumes. Drapes over pecs are fine, but not breasts? Why? What would make a women's t-shirt fit in a more 'flattering' manner? Tighter? More forming to curves on the waist and breasts? Looser, more baggy? Why would that particular fit be flattering? Also why is the goal to have a 'flattering' t-shirt -- which implies impressing other people, being an object for everyone else's gaze -- rather than a t-shirt that you like? It's sexism against women if we don't provide t-shirts that are 'flattering' to the people looking at her?
tomasien 13y ago
I decided to write up a quick blog for public discussion outside of this thread Blog: http://istommydrunk.svbtle.com/the-maleonly-version-of-the-female-founders-conference http://istommydrunk.svbtle.com/the-maleonly-version-of-the-f... Comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7099636 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7099636 If anyone wants to find it on the front page, it's there
gizmo686 13y ago
On a meta-level, I think you are observing the vocal minority bias. As evidence, consider the fact that your comment currently holds the first comment position, suggesting that it received a significant amount of upvotes relative to the other comments. I observe the same effect on other, similar, threads, where the first comment tends to be a response to the overwhelming "If it's just for women, it's sexism, same as if we said something was just for men" you are observing.
- steveklabnik 13y ago
  > suggesting that it received a significant amount of upvotes relative to the other comments. This is not strictly true, position is based on a lot of factors.
  - teh_klev 13y ago
    Please explain these other factors, I am genuinely interested. How do top comments stay top whilst accumulating a huge number of polar opposite commentary?
    - steveklabnik 13y ago
      > How do top comments stay top whilst accumulating a huge number of polar opposite commentary? Note that this is not what I said. I just said that votes are not the only factor. > On the front page, by points divided by a power of the time since they were submitted. Comments in comment threads are ranked the same way. http://ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html http://ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html Now, HN runs on a slightly modified version of news.arc, so we can't be 100% for sure. pg did give the formula a long time ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1781417 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1781417 TL;DR: time since the comment was left is often a factor.
- tomasien 13y ago
  There's a lot of factors here, but why would the majority be silent in tech? Is it because they feel like their voice is belittled?
001sky 13y ago
This thread made me want to cry..... this thread..... The irony in this manipulative[1] use of language in a topic on sexism is outstanding. Seriously, could you have tried any harder (to fan the flames)[2]? _________________ [1] http://wis-wander.weizmann.ac.il/a-chemical-signal-in-human-tears#.Ut8ZgCj0DZs http://wis-wander.weizmann.ac.il/a-chemical-signal-in-human-... [2] eg, courtesy of google http://www.forbes.com/sites/jennagoudreau/2011/01/11/crying-at-work-a-womans-burden-study-men-sex-testosterone-tears-arousal/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/jennagoudreau/2011/01/11/crying-... Crying At Work, A Woman's Burden There are few situations where crying is “acceptable.” The worst offenses, she found, are crying in a public meeting or because of work stress, like a looming deadline or coworker disagreement, because it is considered disruptive and weak. Crying in a private performance evaluation is also considered unprofessional and often manipulative. The only exception to criticism is crying due to a personal loss like death or divorce, and even that has its limits. “If the crying is excessive–repeated or prolonged, rather than a single episode–it could be considered unstable or weak,” My question to you is what were you thinking in this choice of language?
- tomasien 13y ago
  Didn't consider it, I'm a man though. That seems relevant. I also can not have achieved any of the chemical benefits of crying because you aren't near me. So... I don't know. I don't even really know what you're trying to say. If you're saying my use of language was extremely strong, you're right - intentionally so because I actually felt like crying and did, in fact, cry a tiny bit after reading these comments. They're horrible and I love HN so much, I can't stand that it can't deal with gender issues in a reasonable way.
  - 001sky 13y ago
    Didn't consider it, I'm a man though. You seem to dismiss the plausibility/utility of feigned empathy.[1] Headline> Babies do fake cry to get attention according to research http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/10577825/Babies-do-fake-cry-to-get-attention-according-to-research.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/10577825/Bab... [1] Nothing personal, just connecting the dots.
DenisM 13y ago
Rather than crying, try being more persuasive in your arguments. If it ain't working, try a different angle. It will go over better with the people whose opinion you're trying to change - the silent and cautiously indifferent majority. Persuasion is hard, but you sort of signed up for the hardship here, didn't you? A lot of people on "your side" of the issue are either flat out incoherent or go far too deep into proselytization land to be tolerable. The other side is also somewhat incoherent and often shallow or juvenile. Together the two sides are creating a lot of noise for each other, with hardly any digestible information for the masses.

Crake 13y ago

>This thread made me want to cry.... Ah, estrogen privilege.

tomasien 13y ago
I have no idea if this is a joke or not, but I'm a male. 6'5", 210, played college basketball, male who wants to or actually does cry reading HN comments about gender issues. (I don't think my size or athletic ability has anything to do with my maleness, but given the quality of discussion going on here, I figure it may be relevant in some people's minds)
- Crake 13y ago
  It's a sjw themed joke.
supergauntlet 13y ago
I wish I had enough karma to downvote you. Instead of having any actual discussion you'd rather make some low effort sarcastic shitpost to try and derail? This thread is doomed to the flamewar detector anyways, I don't suppose there's any point in trying to have decent discussion here.
kyro 13y ago
Who are you? I've read your comments. You claim to know the real reasons why women aren't going into tech, you reply to comments about gender/racial disparity with such simple-minded arrogance and assurance, yet your profile says you're a college student studying EE and physics. You're nothing more than the typical puffed-up ignorant college asshole who thinks he has the world figured out. Wait till all the pubes have grown in and get a few years in the real world under your belt before thinking about making such idiotic statements because as of now you have absolutely nothing of value to contribute. For a college kid in the throes of acquiring knowledge and perspective, you're pretty god damn ignorant and stubborn and just dickish on the whole. And if you're not the typical 18-22yo college kid, but rather someone a bit older, then this is all the sadder really.
- Crake 13y ago
  Who am I? You told me what I am in your comment, so I guess I'll have to bow to your superior expertise on the matter. Interesting how you think you know all about what sort of person I am without knowing anything about my background, my life experiences, or the circumstances and fields of work that I have/have not encountered sexism in. SJWs always think they know everything about people who disagree with them, just by the virtue of the fact that the person dared to disagree. Perhaps it is for this reason that you and others of your ideological persuasion seem unable to resort to anything aside from hostile yet awfully generic (and as result--often hilariously inaccurate) personal attacks. Rude remarks and mistaken assumptions about my genitals aside, no, I am not in the 18-22 year old age range, and haven't been for some time. Sad as it may seem to you, there are indeed people of all ages who believe in egalitarianism.
  - kyro 13y ago
    Thanks for editing your profile. Anyway, you've put more thought and words in this one reply than you have in most of your recent ones in response to racial/gender/socioeconomic disparity. You've mocked the OP for crying (which was a "hilariously inaccurate personal attack" that's a joke now, apparently), and you've responded to my and others' comments with simple-minded quips. I'd have kept your age a secret.

yetanotherphd 13y ago

>Does anyone have ideas about what could be done to educate... Well the problem with debate is that everyone wants to "educate" the other side. So my idea is that you prove you are actually right, and then maybe people will accept your views.

tomasien 13y ago
That's actually not terrible. That's a pretty good thought framework for thinking about this problem I think.

MartinCron 13y ago

Does anyone have ideas about what could be done to educate against the constant same old "If it's just for women, it's sexism, same as if we said something was just for men" crap? I mean this is basically internet discussion canon at this point At this point, you have to believe that comments like this (along with the "why no programs to get more male teachers?" gem) are pure trolling and not people trying to express new or compelling ideas. I mean, do these guys think that they are such brilliant thinkers that they are the first ever to try apply symmetry to an asymmetrical context?

mkdir 13y ago
It looks like you've spent the last few months ignoring all but the worst arguments against your position. That sort of insularity doesn't help you understand the other side. > I mean, do these guys think that they are such brilliant thinkers that they are the first ever to try apply symmetry to an asymmetrical context? You need to read more charitably, because I can safely say that everyone recognizes the asymmetry. There are a couple of issues here, the first of which is that contextual asymmetry doesn't always matter. One example: Sarah and Amy walk up to John and Christopher on the playground at school. John is enjoying a strawberry ice cream cone. The two girls slap Christopher, who retaliates by slapping them both back. John, ice cream cone still in hand, yells for the teacher to come over. "Christopher!", scolds the teacher, "Slapping is wrong! Come to the office with me." "But Sarah and Amy slapped me first! Why aren't they getting in trouble?" "Because John has an ice cream cone, and you're both boys." Second, some of the asymmetry in this context is actually inconvenient for your position. A few examples: 1. Society is far more sensitive to the plight of girls than to the plight of boys. As such, it's often politically unfeasible to ever reverse a program that elevates girls at the expense of boys. For instance, there are still far more scholarships available to girls than are available to boys, despite the fact that women have outnumbered men in college for decades. 2. Boys and men are less risk-averse than girls and women, and as a result, they find themselves more numerous at both the top and the bottom of society. Programs that ignore the men not at the top of society, in favor of elevating women toward the top, end up hurting disadvantaged men. 3. STEM jobs are perhaps the only good realistic job prospect for young boys today. Programs that whisk girls ahead of boys for STEM jobs end up leaving those boys with nowhere to turn, because there is insufficient (not non-existent) political pressure to open up other opportunities for them (as point #1 above demonstrated).

adammil 13y ago

You can have a female founders conference, whose purpose is to uplift women, and allow men to be there as well. True story: I once attended a "women in tech" style conference as a hiring manager looking for potential recruits, and I won a random drawing for a prize. It was a purse with a company logo on it. Yes, it felt pretty sexist that no one expected a man would be there.

lcc 13y ago
I'm sorry you didn't like the prize, but is it such a stretch that prizes at a women-in-tech conference would be targeted at women in tech? You might not realize it, but women face a similar issue all the time at conferences/events where "unisex" (really men's) cut t-shirts are given out. These t-shirts are generally quite flattering on men and not-so-flattering on women, so I'd argue they're the woman's equivalent of your purse. I went to the Grace Hopper conference this year and it was very refreshing to see that every company that gave out t-shirts used female cuts, since those are t-shirts I'll actually wear!
- cbr 13y ago
  I agree with the substance of your post, but "quite flattering" pushes a bit far.
  - msandford 13y ago
    Seriously, men's t-shirts are pretty terrible. They're designed it seems for a man who's 5'10 and 170lbs or something and then just scaled linearly in both X and Y. That's not how human beings scale, though. As a guy who's 6'3 and a bit more torso than legs I feel like I would need to be at least 250-275lbs for an XL shirt (which I need to wear so it's long enough) to not look like a sail. This isn't a problem unique to women, it's unique to anyone who's not a 5'10 170lbs man; the mannequin they designed the shirt for.
- obstacle1 13y ago
  >You might not realize it, but women face a similar issue all the time at conferences/events where "unisex" (really men's) cut t-shirts are given out. These t-shirts are generally quite flattering on men and not-so-flattering on women, so I'd argue they're the woman's equivalent of your purse. Erm. This kind of makes a lot of assumptions about what 'flattering on women' means. Which of course begs the question about a lot of possible latent sexism at play in your response. The sorts of t-shirts given out at conferences don't fit anyone. They're generic pieces of cloth that wear like drapes. Hanes Beefy-Ts. That you think they're appropriate for men but not women kinda speaks volumes. Drapes over pecs are fine, but not breasts? Why? What would make a women's t-shirt fit in a more 'flattering' manner? Tighter? More forming to curves on the waist and breasts? Looser, more baggy? Why would that particular fit be flattering? Also why is the goal to have a 'flattering' t-shirt -- which implies impressing other people, being an object for everyone else's gaze -- rather than a t-shirt that you like? It's sexism against women if we don't provide t-shirts that are 'flattering' to the people looking at her?

tomasien 13y ago

I decided to write up a quick blog for public discussion outside of this thread Blog: http://istommydrunk.svbtle.com/the-maleonly-version-of-the-female-founders-conference http://istommydrunk.svbtle.com/the-maleonly-version-of-the-f... Comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7099636 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7099636 If anyone wants to find it on the front page, it's there

gizmo686 13y ago

On a meta-level, I think you are observing the vocal minority bias. As evidence, consider the fact that your comment currently holds the first comment position, suggesting that it received a significant amount of upvotes relative to the other comments. I observe the same effect on other, similar, threads, where the first comment tends to be a response to the overwhelming "If it's just for women, it's sexism, same as if we said something was just for men" you are observing.

steveklabnik 13y ago
> suggesting that it received a significant amount of upvotes relative to the other comments. This is not strictly true, position is based on a lot of factors.
- teh_klev 13y ago
  Please explain these other factors, I am genuinely interested. How do top comments stay top whilst accumulating a huge number of polar opposite commentary?
  - steveklabnik 13y ago
    > How do top comments stay top whilst accumulating a huge number of polar opposite commentary? Note that this is not what I said. I just said that votes are not the only factor. > On the front page, by points divided by a power of the time since they were submitted. Comments in comment threads are ranked the same way. http://ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html http://ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html Now, HN runs on a slightly modified version of news.arc, so we can't be 100% for sure. pg did give the formula a long time ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1781417 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1781417 TL;DR: time since the comment was left is often a factor.
tomasien 13y ago
There's a lot of factors here, but why would the majority be silent in tech? Is it because they feel like their voice is belittled?

001sky 13y ago

This thread made me want to cry..... this thread..... The irony in this manipulative[1] use of language in a topic on sexism is outstanding. Seriously, could you have tried any harder (to fan the flames)[2]? _________________ [1] http://wis-wander.weizmann.ac.il/a-chemical-signal-in-human-tears#.Ut8ZgCj0DZs http://wis-wander.weizmann.ac.il/a-chemical-signal-in-human-... [2] eg, courtesy of google http://www.forbes.com/sites/jennagoudreau/2011/01/11/crying-at-work-a-womans-burden-study-men-sex-testosterone-tears-arousal/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/jennagoudreau/2011/01/11/crying-... Crying At Work, A Woman's Burden There are few situations where crying is “acceptable.” The worst offenses, she found, are crying in a public meeting or because of work stress, like a looming deadline or coworker disagreement, because it is considered disruptive and weak. Crying in a private performance evaluation is also considered unprofessional and often manipulative. The only exception to criticism is crying due to a personal loss like death or divorce, and even that has its limits. “If the crying is excessive–repeated or prolonged, rather than a single episode–it could be considered unstable or weak,” My question to you is what were you thinking in this choice of language?

tomasien 13y ago
Didn't consider it, I'm a man though. That seems relevant. I also can not have achieved any of the chemical benefits of crying because you aren't near me. So... I don't know. I don't even really know what you're trying to say. If you're saying my use of language was extremely strong, you're right - intentionally so because I actually felt like crying and did, in fact, cry a tiny bit after reading these comments. They're horrible and I love HN so much, I can't stand that it can't deal with gender issues in a reasonable way.
- 001sky 13y ago
  Didn't consider it, I'm a man though. You seem to dismiss the plausibility/utility of feigned empathy.[1] Headline> Babies do fake cry to get attention according to research http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/10577825/Babies-do-fake-cry-to-get-attention-according-to-research.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/10577825/Bab... [1] Nothing personal, just connecting the dots.

DenisM 13y ago

Rather than crying, try being more persuasive in your arguments. If it ain't working, try a different angle. It will go over better with the people whose opinion you're trying to change - the silent and cautiously indifferent majority. Persuasion is hard, but you sort of signed up for the hardship here, didn't you? A lot of people on "your side" of the issue are either flat out incoherent or go far too deep into proselytization land to be tolerable. The other side is also somewhat incoherent and often shallow or juvenile. Together the two sides are creating a lot of noise for each other, with hardly any digestible information for the masses.