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> the dollar has intrinsic value in that it is backed by freedom from being prosecuted by the US government for non-payment of taxes Do you realize how little

by ye 13y ago

> the dollar has intrinsic value in that it is backed by freedom from being prosecuted by the US government for non-payment of taxes Do you realize how little sense you're making? It's like you wanted to insert meaningless buzzwords like "freedom", not to mention that there's no freedom from being prosecuted for non-payment of taxes. Well, in that case Bitcoin's intrinsic value is that it's backed by the freedom of storage, transfer, global acceptance and low fees, immunity to being counterfeited, immunity from inflation caused by printing, etc.

plock 13y ago
>not to mention that there's no freedom from being prosecuted for non-payment of taxes. What? If I pay my taxes, I won't be prosecuted for non-payment of taxes. >in that case Bitcoin's intrinsic value is that it's backed by the freedom of storage Storage of what? >transfer, It doesn't matter how easy it is to transfer something to someone else if they don't want it. That thing must be seen as valuable for some other reason for anyone to care how easily it can be transferred. >global acceptance Who across the globe is guaranteeing they'll accept a certain number of bitcoins in exchange for a certain amount of something else? >immunity to being counterfeited If I generate a random RSA public key and use it to sign some randomly generated blobs of useless bits, do those blobs of bits and their signature have intrinsic value because it's hard to counterfeit them? >immunity from inflation caused by printing These things you're listing make bitcoin a more suitable currency than some other arbitrary thing that doesn't have those properties, all else equal. It doesn't mean bitcoin has intrinsic value, as I've defined it, and it certainly doesn't mean bitcoin is a good currency overall.
- ye 13y ago
  First of all, I can pay taxes in Bitcoin. There's a company that handles it for me. Second of all, your dollar's "intrinsic value" being an American criminal law makes zero sense. It's geography-specific. Suddenly if I'm not from US, that "intrinsic value" disappears. So much for that dumb definition. > It doesn't matter how easy it is to transfer something to someone else if they don't want it. That thing must be seen as valuable for some other reason for anyone to care how easily it can be transferred There are multibillion global transportation industries out there, and they don't care what they transport (as long as it's legal). People pay them because they provide ease of transportation at a reasonable price per pound. I'd say ease of transportation is much more valuable to the majority of the world than some "freedom from prosecution" by some government that can't touch them.
  - plock 13y ago
    >First of all, I can pay taxes in Bitcoin. There's a company that handles it for me. That company doesn't pay the US government in bitcoin. They just buy dollars on your behalf. Every dollar owed in taxes must be paid in USD. >Suddenly if I'm not from US, that "intrinsic value" disappears. So much for that dumb definition. It doesn't 'disappear'. There are still millions upon millions of people who need USD to pay their taxes. That's where the backing comes from. It doesn't matter if not everyone has to pay taxes in USD. Quite a lot do, and they need to buy dollars from other people in order to do so. >There are multibillion global transportation industries out there, and they don't care what they transport (as long as it's legal). I'm sure the people that hire them to transport goods value what's being transported. >People pay them because they provide ease of transportation at a reasonable price per pound. What point are you trying to make? >I'd say ease of transportation is much more valuable to the majority of the world than some "freedom from prosecution" by some government that can't touch them. Freedom from prosecution is pretty important to the people in the US that owe taxes to the US government. But you're comparing apples to oranges. Ease of transportation is a feature of bitcoin. But ease of transportation does not itself give anything value. You are easily transporting your words to my computer. That doesn't mean they're valuable. Ease of transportation makes bitcoin a more suitable currency than something that is equal in all other ways but is harder to transport. But something having some features that make it suitable as a currency doesn't mean it is actually a good currency. On the other hand, freedom from prosecution is something you can buy with USD. It's not a feature of the piece of cloth called the USD that you can pay taxes with it. It just happens to be that way. And I would say that a guarantee that your money will be worth something [because people will always have to buy it in order to escape prosecution from non-payment of taxes] is more important than ease of transportation.
    - ye 13y ago
      You're still confusing the burden to pay taxes under the penalty of law in one particular country with value. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what "value" means. > That company doesn't pay the US government in bitcoin. But I don't care. I paid in Bitcoin. > That's where the backing comes from I doubt dollar "intrinsic value" comes from the fact that you have to pay taxes in it. It can spiral into a 10000%/year inflation and lose most of its value, and you will still be able to pay taxes with it. In fact, you've been required to pay US taxes in dollars for the last 100 years. It didn't stop the dollar from losing 97% of its value. Again, you're confusing value with some criminal law. > I'm sure the people that hire them to transport goods value what's being transported. What? You can't transport something that has no value? Like an empty box? > Freedom from prosecution is pretty important to the people in the US that owe taxes to the US government Ah, red herring. I was talking about "majority of the world", and you switched back to the Americans, as if that somehow proves that most of the world doesn't give a crap about US criminal codes, which, according to you, somehow back the value of the dollar. > Ease of transportation is a feature of bitcoin Which adds to its value, like features of... everything. Trying to play with words will get you nowhere. > But ease of transportation does not itself give anything value We already went over this. Multibillion transportation industry.

by ye 13y ago

plock 13y ago

>not to mention that there's no freedom from being prosecuted for non-payment of taxes. What? If I pay my taxes, I won't be prosecuted for non-payment of taxes. >in that case Bitcoin's intrinsic value is that it's backed by the freedom of storage Storage of what? >transfer, It doesn't matter how easy it is to transfer something to someone else if they don't want it. That thing must be seen as valuable for some other reason for anyone to care how easily it can be transferred. >global acceptance Who across the globe is guaranteeing they'll accept a certain number of bitcoins in exchange for a certain amount of something else? >immunity to being counterfeited If I generate a random RSA public key and use it to sign some randomly generated blobs of useless bits, do those blobs of bits and their signature have intrinsic value because it's hard to counterfeit them? >immunity from inflation caused by printing These things you're listing make bitcoin a more suitable currency than some other arbitrary thing that doesn't have those properties, all else equal. It doesn't mean bitcoin has intrinsic value, as I've defined it, and it certainly doesn't mean bitcoin is a good currency overall.

ye 13y ago
First of all, I can pay taxes in Bitcoin. There's a company that handles it for me. Second of all, your dollar's "intrinsic value" being an American criminal law makes zero sense. It's geography-specific. Suddenly if I'm not from US, that "intrinsic value" disappears. So much for that dumb definition. > It doesn't matter how easy it is to transfer something to someone else if they don't want it. That thing must be seen as valuable for some other reason for anyone to care how easily it can be transferred There are multibillion global transportation industries out there, and they don't care what they transport (as long as it's legal). People pay them because they provide ease of transportation at a reasonable price per pound. I'd say ease of transportation is much more valuable to the majority of the world than some "freedom from prosecution" by some government that can't touch them.
- plock 13y ago
  >First of all, I can pay taxes in Bitcoin. There's a company that handles it for me. That company doesn't pay the US government in bitcoin. They just buy dollars on your behalf. Every dollar owed in taxes must be paid in USD. >Suddenly if I'm not from US, that "intrinsic value" disappears. So much for that dumb definition. It doesn't 'disappear'. There are still millions upon millions of people who need USD to pay their taxes. That's where the backing comes from. It doesn't matter if not everyone has to pay taxes in USD. Quite a lot do, and they need to buy dollars from other people in order to do so. >There are multibillion global transportation industries out there, and they don't care what they transport (as long as it's legal). I'm sure the people that hire them to transport goods value what's being transported. >People pay them because they provide ease of transportation at a reasonable price per pound. What point are you trying to make? >I'd say ease of transportation is much more valuable to the majority of the world than some "freedom from prosecution" by some government that can't touch them. Freedom from prosecution is pretty important to the people in the US that owe taxes to the US government. But you're comparing apples to oranges. Ease of transportation is a feature of bitcoin. But ease of transportation does not itself give anything value. You are easily transporting your words to my computer. That doesn't mean they're valuable. Ease of transportation makes bitcoin a more suitable currency than something that is equal in all other ways but is harder to transport. But something having some features that make it suitable as a currency doesn't mean it is actually a good currency. On the other hand, freedom from prosecution is something you can buy with USD. It's not a feature of the piece of cloth called the USD that you can pay taxes with it. It just happens to be that way. And I would say that a guarantee that your money will be worth something [because people will always have to buy it in order to escape prosecution from non-payment of taxes] is more important than ease of transportation.
  - ye 13y ago
    You're still confusing the burden to pay taxes under the penalty of law in one particular country with value. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what "value" means. > That company doesn't pay the US government in bitcoin. But I don't care. I paid in Bitcoin. > That's where the backing comes from I doubt dollar "intrinsic value" comes from the fact that you have to pay taxes in it. It can spiral into a 10000%/year inflation and lose most of its value, and you will still be able to pay taxes with it. In fact, you've been required to pay US taxes in dollars for the last 100 years. It didn't stop the dollar from losing 97% of its value. Again, you're confusing value with some criminal law. > I'm sure the people that hire them to transport goods value what's being transported. What? You can't transport something that has no value? Like an empty box? > Freedom from prosecution is pretty important to the people in the US that owe taxes to the US government Ah, red herring. I was talking about "majority of the world", and you switched back to the Americans, as if that somehow proves that most of the world doesn't give a crap about US criminal codes, which, according to you, somehow back the value of the dollar. > Ease of transportation is a feature of bitcoin Which adds to its value, like features of... everything. Trying to play with words will get you nowhere. > But ease of transportation does not itself give anything value We already went over this. Multibillion transportation industry.