5 ms·

> Some radical feminists only accept 'born as women' to their conferences. And if transwomen are accepted, what's their definition of that. Really. That's inte

> Some radical feminists only accept 'born as women' to their conferences. And if transwomen are accepted, what's their definition of that. Really. That's interesting. I know... a few feminists 'round these parts who might be characterized "radical." Can't think of anyone getting their hate on against trans women. And I don't know why you would raise such a specter of exclusion with no basis.

badman_ting 13y ago
I have never heard of such a thing in a conference context, but I have seen it come up in others. And I don't think it's helpful to label such exclusion "hate", as it typically comes from women who feel that self-identifying as female is not sufficient to qualify one to be called a woman. But it's a very complex and interesting issue, not worth bringing up here, as you note. It's brought up here to stir the pot, I seriously doubt GP actually cares about transpeople at all. [Edited later: for what it's worth, I regret choosing the word "typically" above. "Sometimes" or "often" would have been more appropriate word choices]
- mtrimpe 13y ago
  I agree that it's largely to stir the pot in this case, but as a gender-dysphoric bisexual male I am curious where the line would be drawn. I'm fairly sure Jessica will just apply common sense though and would put me somewhere below full (trans-)women but above cisgendered men as far as priority goes, which would make sense. Not that I'd be able to attend either way though; even though I would very much love to.
  - dictum 13y ago
    > I'm fairly sure Jessica will just apply common sense though and would put me somewhere below full (trans-)women but above cisgendered men as far as priority goes, which would make sense. Why? If anything, a heterosexual man would be more likely to benefit from a conference for female founders because his SO is a founder or wants to start a company. (Not trying to start a flame war — I just can't see the difference between a bisexual man, a homosexual man and a heterosexual man in this context.)
    - mtrimpe 13y ago
      The key part there is 'gender-dysphoric' which basically my identity lies somewhere in the middle between male and female. That basically means that while I don't feel like I'm in the wrong body, I do prefer (to some degree) to socially act and be treated as a woman. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder
      - dictum 13y ago
        Sorry, I'd missed that. I had seen 'gender-dysphoric' before but didn't know the meaning of dysphoria and hadn't looked it up.
  - detcader 13y ago
    You were born male and so have not experienced female socialization and experiences throughout your life. You have what is often called "male privilege." I'm not comfortable with my "gender" either (who is?) but I don't plan on taking up space at the conference.
- nawitus 13y ago
  I referred to the RadFem2012 conference[1]. >I seriously doubt GP actually cares about transpeople at all. That's very offending. 1. http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2012/05/23/radfem2012-excluding-on-the-basis-of-gender/ http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2012/05/23/radfem2012-excludi...
  - badman_ting 13y ago
    OK, so if I follow what you're saying, since RadFem2012 excluded transwomen, the Female Founders Conference probably will too? Perhaps, nawitus. Perhaps.
mtrimpe 13y ago
Feminists fighting against trans women is a fairly well known phenomenon. Feminist and transphobic are hardly mutually exclusive worldviews. Edit: dug up a few pointer links: http://www.transadvocate.com/unpacking-transphobia-in-feminism.htm http://www.transadvocate.com/unpacking-transphobia-in-femini... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transphobia#Transphobia_in_feminism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transphobia#Transphobia_in_fem... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_views_on_transgenderism_and_transsexualism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_views_on_transgenderi... http://lmgtfy.com/?q=transphobia+feminism http://lmgtfy.com/?q=transphobia+feminism
- danilocampos 13y ago
  While this may be a thing, what I have observed is that those most concerned with feminism in tech offer pretty consistent solidarity with their trans brothers and sisters. I don't believe this was invoked in good faith. Next level concern troll. Thanks for discussing this issue and offering links, too.
  - detcader 13y ago
    Why thank them for providing you sources strictly on one side of the issue? Here's a self-identified "radical feminist" take on it: http://againstallevidence.wordpress.com/2011/04/11/cant-we-all-just-get-along-not-really/ http://againstallevidence.wordpress.com/2011/04/11/cant-we-a...
- rimantas 13y ago
  > self-identified feminist as opposed to what? Certified feminist?
  - ionforce 13y ago
    It calls into question one's worldview as a feminist if you are busy discriminating on gender expression. It seems logically inconsistent.
    - 13y ago
hythloday 13y ago
Radical Feminism (one concept) is somewhat equivalent to separatist feminism, which takes it as axiomatic that women making decisions under the influence of men are not free to make decisions (they're the "all sex is rape" school). Given that, they historically[0] tended to see trans women as male invaders of a female space, which makes them de facto transphobic. Transphobia is not a typical property of feminists who happen to be radical in their views - if anything, it's the opposite (radical feminism is a second-wave school which had its peak in the 70s).
- detcader 13y ago
  Not all people who call themselves radical feminists believe that "all PIV is rape" (notice how you equate sex with penis-in-vagina intercourse). You forgot to provide a link to that [0], I'll give you one: http://againstallevidence.wordpress.com/2011/04/11/cant-we-all-just-get-along-not-really/ http://againstallevidence.wordpress.com/2011/04/11/cant-we-a...
  - hythloday 13y ago
    I didn't mean to imply (and I don't believe) that all radical/separatist feminists believe that, but that the idea originated in that movement. I don't equate PIV with sex but didn't want to add jargon to what was meant to be a 101 post. Hence quotes. Thanks for your help disambiguating.
    - detcader 13y ago
      Any time. I believe there's a high amount of nuance to the writings, activism, and ideas referred to by the phrase "radical feminist," and without noting it, it becomes very easy to get the wrong idea about the whole thing. "All sex is rape" and "all PIV is rape" are two vastly different statements in the context of this politics.

badman_ting 13y ago

I have never heard of such a thing in a conference context, but I have seen it come up in others. And I don't think it's helpful to label such exclusion "hate", as it typically comes from women who feel that self-identifying as female is not sufficient to qualify one to be called a woman. But it's a very complex and interesting issue, not worth bringing up here, as you note. It's brought up here to stir the pot, I seriously doubt GP actually cares about transpeople at all. [Edited later: for what it's worth, I regret choosing the word "typically" above. "Sometimes" or "often" would have been more appropriate word choices]

mtrimpe 13y ago
I agree that it's largely to stir the pot in this case, but as a gender-dysphoric bisexual male I am curious where the line would be drawn. I'm fairly sure Jessica will just apply common sense though and would put me somewhere below full (trans-)women but above cisgendered men as far as priority goes, which would make sense. Not that I'd be able to attend either way though; even though I would very much love to.
- dictum 13y ago
  > I'm fairly sure Jessica will just apply common sense though and would put me somewhere below full (trans-)women but above cisgendered men as far as priority goes, which would make sense. Why? If anything, a heterosexual man would be more likely to benefit from a conference for female founders because his SO is a founder or wants to start a company. (Not trying to start a flame war — I just can't see the difference between a bisexual man, a homosexual man and a heterosexual man in this context.)
  - mtrimpe 13y ago
    The key part there is 'gender-dysphoric' which basically my identity lies somewhere in the middle between male and female. That basically means that while I don't feel like I'm in the wrong body, I do prefer (to some degree) to socially act and be treated as a woman. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder
    - dictum 13y ago
      Sorry, I'd missed that. I had seen 'gender-dysphoric' before but didn't know the meaning of dysphoria and hadn't looked it up.
- detcader 13y ago
  You were born male and so have not experienced female socialization and experiences throughout your life. You have what is often called "male privilege." I'm not comfortable with my "gender" either (who is?) but I don't plan on taking up space at the conference.
nawitus 13y ago
I referred to the RadFem2012 conference[1]. >I seriously doubt GP actually cares about transpeople at all. That's very offending. 1. http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2012/05/23/radfem2012-excluding-on-the-basis-of-gender/ http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2012/05/23/radfem2012-excludi...
- badman_ting 13y ago
  OK, so if I follow what you're saying, since RadFem2012 excluded transwomen, the Female Founders Conference probably will too? Perhaps, nawitus. Perhaps.

mtrimpe 13y ago

Feminists fighting against trans women is a fairly well known phenomenon. Feminist and transphobic are hardly mutually exclusive worldviews. Edit: dug up a few pointer links: http://www.transadvocate.com/unpacking-transphobia-in-feminism.htm http://www.transadvocate.com/unpacking-transphobia-in-femini... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transphobia#Transphobia_in_feminism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transphobia#Transphobia_in_fem... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_views_on_transgenderism_and_transsexualism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_views_on_transgenderi... http://lmgtfy.com/?q=transphobia+feminism http://lmgtfy.com/?q=transphobia+feminism

danilocampos 13y ago
While this may be a thing, what I have observed is that those most concerned with feminism in tech offer pretty consistent solidarity with their trans brothers and sisters. I don't believe this was invoked in good faith. Next level concern troll. Thanks for discussing this issue and offering links, too.
- detcader 13y ago
  Why thank them for providing you sources strictly on one side of the issue? Here's a self-identified "radical feminist" take on it: http://againstallevidence.wordpress.com/2011/04/11/cant-we-all-just-get-along-not-really/ http://againstallevidence.wordpress.com/2011/04/11/cant-we-a...
rimantas 13y ago
> self-identified feminist as opposed to what? Certified feminist?
- ionforce 13y ago
  It calls into question one's worldview as a feminist if you are busy discriminating on gender expression. It seems logically inconsistent.
  - 13y ago

hythloday 13y ago

Radical Feminism (one concept) is somewhat equivalent to separatist feminism, which takes it as axiomatic that women making decisions under the influence of men are not free to make decisions (they're the "all sex is rape" school). Given that, they historically[0] tended to see trans women as male invaders of a female space, which makes them de facto transphobic. Transphobia is not a typical property of feminists who happen to be radical in their views - if anything, it's the opposite (radical feminism is a second-wave school which had its peak in the 70s).

detcader 13y ago
Not all people who call themselves radical feminists believe that "all PIV is rape" (notice how you equate sex with penis-in-vagina intercourse). You forgot to provide a link to that [0], I'll give you one: http://againstallevidence.wordpress.com/2011/04/11/cant-we-all-just-get-along-not-really/ http://againstallevidence.wordpress.com/2011/04/11/cant-we-a...
- hythloday 13y ago
  I didn't mean to imply (and I don't believe) that all radical/separatist feminists believe that, but that the idea originated in that movement. I don't equate PIV with sex but didn't want to add jargon to what was meant to be a 101 post. Hence quotes. Thanks for your help disambiguating.
  - detcader 13y ago
    Any time. I believe there's a high amount of nuance to the writings, activism, and ideas referred to by the phrase "radical feminist," and without noting it, it becomes very easy to get the wrong idea about the whole thing. "All sex is rape" and "all PIV is rape" are two vastly different statements in the context of this politics.