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Not everyone acts as rational machines, professors' egos have to be stroked too. They'd like to think that they can't just be reduced to a number between 1 and

by jsun 13y ago

Not everyone acts as rational machines, professors' egos have to be stroked too. They'd like to think that they can't just be reduced to a number between 1 and 5. Besides which, I think exposing rating systems for courses creates perverse incentives. It's been well studied that students who get better grades rate courses higher. Is that really what we want to be measuring professors against?

chatmasta 13y ago
Yale students write Yale course reviews in order to see their grade. You get an email saying "a new grade has been posted," then you fill out the review form, then you see your grade.
- mbreese 13y ago
  Don't you think students already have a pretty good idea of what their grade will be before they write the review?
  - mkaziz 13y ago
    Nope. From Northwestern University, and I've often ended a quarter with no idea whether I'll get an A or a C.
icambron 13y ago
> Not everyone acts as rational machines OK, but now you're arguing that Yale students shouldn't be exposed to free expression because they're incapable of handling its consequences. I think that's silly, but fine: it's a real argument. But let's stop pretending this kind of paternalism is consistent with even a modest notion of free expression, because it's very clearly not. It says "you can only say things we approve of, because we know best." Being right about knowing best doesn't make it not a limitation on free expression. Free expression as a principle necessarily doesn't hinge on whether you think the individual expressions are right. That's, like, the whole point of it. [1] You're also arguing that 1-5 rating systems are silly and Yale shouldn't bother collecting them, but that has nothing to do with the YBB+ website or how students will interpret it. For example, wouldn't those perverse incentives you mention be in place already, given that providing feedback to professors was the whole point? Ratings don't magically transform from useful evaluation tools to misguided oversimplifications just because students have convenient access to them. Either they carry useful information or they don't. [1] I'm not taking a free expression absolutist position here. (I'm tempted to, but it's totally unnecessary for this discussion.) The point is that to the degree to which you make rules about what kind of thing people can express is, well, trivially the degree to which you limit free expression. And limiting the ability of students to transmit truthful data about the courses they're taking is a very strong limitation, and it would be hard to formulate a consistent, principled policy that permits this kind of restriction and doesn't just say, "you can't say things we don't like".
- saraid216 13y ago
  > OK, but now you're arguing that Yale students shouldn't be exposed to free expression because they're incapable of handling its consequences. Odd, I read jsun's comment to be claiming that the professors were incapable of handling the consequences, not the students.
  - icambron 13y ago
    You're right. That should say "because professors are incapable of handling its consequences". I think the point stands, though.
- jsun 13y ago
  Why is this a free expression issue? Yale is simply saying you can use the data we collected, but in order to do so you must show ALL of it, including comments. If Yelp changed their open API rules and said you can display the star ratings for a restaurant, but you have to display the text of the reviews as well, would everyone be up in arms about it?
  - JangoSteve 13y ago
    They're not talking about "free expression" in the generic sense. They're specifically talking about Yale's Freedom of Expression Policy [1]. Comparing this to Yelp doesn't make sense, because the Dean of Yelp never said, "I disagree that Yale violated its policies on free expression in this situation." The policy in question specifically states that Yale values "the need to be able to 'think the unthinkable, discuss the unmentionable, and challenge the unchallengeable.'" and acknowledges that "such freedom may sometimes make life uncomfortable in a small society such as a college. But it also asserts that 'because no other institution combines the discovery and dissemination of basic knowledge with teaching, few need assign such high priority to it.'" I don't really have a bone in this fight, so to speak, but I do find it interesting that the Dean of Yale has such a problem with the way their students are using their data to express an idea, when their very own Freedom of Expression Policy says: Yale's commitment to freedom of expression means that when you agree to matriculate, you join a community where "the provocative, the disturbing, and the unorthodox" must be tolerated. When you encounter people who think differently than you do, you will be expected to honor their free expression, even when what they have to say seems wrong or offensive to you. Although, if we're being pedantic, their policy technically states that they expect their students and graduates to honor others' free expression, not that they agree to honor their students' free expression. [1] http://yalecollege.yale.edu/content/freedom-expression http://yalecollege.yale.edu/content/freedom-expression
ghobs91 13y ago
Just as students probably don't want to be reduced to a number between 1 and 4.

by jsun 13y ago

chatmasta 13y ago

Yale students write Yale course reviews in order to see their grade. You get an email saying "a new grade has been posted," then you fill out the review form, then you see your grade.

mbreese 13y ago
Don't you think students already have a pretty good idea of what their grade will be before they write the review?
- mkaziz 13y ago
  Nope. From Northwestern University, and I've often ended a quarter with no idea whether I'll get an A or a C.

icambron 13y ago

> Not everyone acts as rational machines OK, but now you're arguing that Yale students shouldn't be exposed to free expression because they're incapable of handling its consequences. I think that's silly, but fine: it's a real argument. But let's stop pretending this kind of paternalism is consistent with even a modest notion of free expression, because it's very clearly not. It says "you can only say things we approve of, because we know best." Being right about knowing best doesn't make it not a limitation on free expression. Free expression as a principle necessarily doesn't hinge on whether you think the individual expressions are right. That's, like, the whole point of it. [1] You're also arguing that 1-5 rating systems are silly and Yale shouldn't bother collecting them, but that has nothing to do with the YBB+ website or how students will interpret it. For example, wouldn't those perverse incentives you mention be in place already, given that providing feedback to professors was the whole point? Ratings don't magically transform from useful evaluation tools to misguided oversimplifications just because students have convenient access to them. Either they carry useful information or they don't. [1] I'm not taking a free expression absolutist position here. (I'm tempted to, but it's totally unnecessary for this discussion.) The point is that to the degree to which you make rules about what kind of thing people can express is, well, trivially the degree to which you limit free expression. And limiting the ability of students to transmit truthful data about the courses they're taking is a very strong limitation, and it would be hard to formulate a consistent, principled policy that permits this kind of restriction and doesn't just say, "you can't say things we don't like".

saraid216 13y ago
> OK, but now you're arguing that Yale students shouldn't be exposed to free expression because they're incapable of handling its consequences. Odd, I read jsun's comment to be claiming that the professors were incapable of handling the consequences, not the students.
- icambron 13y ago
  You're right. That should say "because professors are incapable of handling its consequences". I think the point stands, though.
jsun 13y ago
Why is this a free expression issue? Yale is simply saying you can use the data we collected, but in order to do so you must show ALL of it, including comments. If Yelp changed their open API rules and said you can display the star ratings for a restaurant, but you have to display the text of the reviews as well, would everyone be up in arms about it?
- JangoSteve 13y ago
  They're not talking about "free expression" in the generic sense. They're specifically talking about Yale's Freedom of Expression Policy [1]. Comparing this to Yelp doesn't make sense, because the Dean of Yelp never said, "I disagree that Yale violated its policies on free expression in this situation." The policy in question specifically states that Yale values "the need to be able to 'think the unthinkable, discuss the unmentionable, and challenge the unchallengeable.'" and acknowledges that "such freedom may sometimes make life uncomfortable in a small society such as a college. But it also asserts that 'because no other institution combines the discovery and dissemination of basic knowledge with teaching, few need assign such high priority to it.'" I don't really have a bone in this fight, so to speak, but I do find it interesting that the Dean of Yale has such a problem with the way their students are using their data to express an idea, when their very own Freedom of Expression Policy says: Yale's commitment to freedom of expression means that when you agree to matriculate, you join a community where "the provocative, the disturbing, and the unorthodox" must be tolerated. When you encounter people who think differently than you do, you will be expected to honor their free expression, even when what they have to say seems wrong or offensive to you. Although, if we're being pedantic, their policy technically states that they expect their students and graduates to honor others' free expression, not that they agree to honor their students' free expression. [1] http://yalecollege.yale.edu/content/freedom-expression http://yalecollege.yale.edu/content/freedom-expression

ghobs91 13y ago

Just as students probably don't want to be reduced to a number between 1 and 4.