31 ms·

Yev from Backblaze here -> All of our drives are consumer-grade. We try to avoid buying enterprise drives at all costs. These are all off-the-shelf internals an

by atYevP 13y ago

Yev from Backblaze here -> All of our drives are consumer-grade. We try to avoid buying enterprise drives at all costs. These are all off-the-shelf internals and in some cases...externals that were made internal! :)

sehrope 13y ago
> and in some cases...externals that were made internal! :) I remember reading about this a while back[1] (fun read!). Have you guys noticed a big difference in life expectancy of the repurposed external drives or do they generally match up with their internal equivalents? [1]: http://blog.backblaze.com/2012/10/09/backblaze_drive_farming/ http://blog.backblaze.com/2012/10/09/backblaze_drive_farming...
- atYevP 13y ago
  Interestingly, we think they do as well if not better (http://blog.backblaze.com/2013/12/04/enterprise-drive-reliability/ http://blog.backblaze.com/2013/12/04/enterprise-drive-reliab...). We think it's because external drives are meant to be jostled around by Joe Schmo, so they do well in our storage pods, whereas internal drives and especially enterprise drives are meant to live in a perfectly Utopian environment.
lsc 13y ago
Have you seen a different failure rate between the drives that were sold as internal vs. the drives that were sold as external and "shucked" ?
- atYevP 13y ago
  Not enough to measure, it turns out once you get their case off they are mostly the same. The real difference is "enterprise" grade vs "consumer" grade dries.
  - rMBP 13y ago
    Do those quotation marks mean "enterprise labelled", such as the WD RE4-series? Are there good data on how they perform vs the consumer series? By good I mean like the data your company provided, samples of thousands of drives.
    - datphp 13y ago
      The MTBF is typically much higher than regular HDDs, and their reliability is probably at the level described for Hitachi (can't give actual stats though, my experience is limited to hundreds not thousands) Those drives aren't designed for HDD farms though. They are meant to be used in environments where a failure is a big problem and paying a lot more for a bit more reliability is worth it. Like that 1U server you got in a datacenter with 2 disks in RAID1. If you have thousands of disks replacing is part of the daily routine, and isn't an issue at all (as numbers suggest in article/comments)
      - lsc 13y ago
        That isn't why you buy enterprise drives. Or, at least, I've spent several Porsches worth of money that I could reasonably have spent on Porsches on enterprise drives, and that isn't why I bought enterprise drives. I buy all enterprise drives. Not because I can't handle replacing a disk; I live within walking distance of the coresite santa clara location where most of my servers are, and actually kinda enjoy that sort of thing. (Yes, yes, I'm sick. But what of it?) I pay double for 'enterprise grade' drives because more often than the consumer-grade drives, they fail clean. That's the thing... what does it mean to have a drive "fail?" The vast majority of my failures with consumer grade drives just /degrade/ rather than outright failing. They get shittier and shittier over time. And yes, with sufficient software you can detect this and automatically fail them, but I don't have that. the "enterprise sata" stuff? More often than not, the things actually fail before they degrade to the point where I notice them causing problems with other things. I buy enterprise grade, not because they last longer, (In fact, I see no evidence that they do) but because they tend to work or fail, whereas consumer grade drives exist on a continuum between "working" and "failing" (Of course, even the enterprise stuff isn't 100%... but it's much better.)
chimeracoder 13y ago
> We try to avoid buying enterprise drives at all costs. Why is that? From what I can read on your website, it seems you would be the correct use-case for enterprise drives, no?x
- rythie 13y ago
  That assumes that you don't think enterprise drives are just marketing ploy, to get execs to part with more of their money for no real benefit.
- atYevP 13y ago
  We designed our storage pods and software to work in spite of hard drive failures, so paying a $50-$100 premium for a drive just to avoid possibly $5 in labor to replace it when it fails is not a good practice. We go for the good cheap stuff, and that's how we maintain low prices for our actual product, which is online backup. As long as the drives are reliable-ish, and are inexpensive, that's what counts!
rincebrain 13y ago
I can understand the cost/reliability tradeoff given a data storage mechanism that provides enough resiliency, but how do you provide that? Are the drives just single-drive FSes with secret sauce atop it, or commodity RAID-N with something doing resiliency atop that, or ?

by atYevP 13y ago

sehrope 13y ago

> and in some cases...externals that were made internal! :) I remember reading about this a while back[1] (fun read!). Have you guys noticed a big difference in life expectancy of the repurposed external drives or do they generally match up with their internal equivalents? [1]: http://blog.backblaze.com/2012/10/09/backblaze_drive_farming/ http://blog.backblaze.com/2012/10/09/backblaze_drive_farming...

atYevP 13y ago
Interestingly, we think they do as well if not better (http://blog.backblaze.com/2013/12/04/enterprise-drive-reliability/ http://blog.backblaze.com/2013/12/04/enterprise-drive-reliab...). We think it's because external drives are meant to be jostled around by Joe Schmo, so they do well in our storage pods, whereas internal drives and especially enterprise drives are meant to live in a perfectly Utopian environment.

lsc 13y ago

Have you seen a different failure rate between the drives that were sold as internal vs. the drives that were sold as external and "shucked" ?

atYevP 13y ago
Not enough to measure, it turns out once you get their case off they are mostly the same. The real difference is "enterprise" grade vs "consumer" grade dries.
- rMBP 13y ago
  Do those quotation marks mean "enterprise labelled", such as the WD RE4-series? Are there good data on how they perform vs the consumer series? By good I mean like the data your company provided, samples of thousands of drives.
  - datphp 13y ago
    The MTBF is typically much higher than regular HDDs, and their reliability is probably at the level described for Hitachi (can't give actual stats though, my experience is limited to hundreds not thousands) Those drives aren't designed for HDD farms though. They are meant to be used in environments where a failure is a big problem and paying a lot more for a bit more reliability is worth it. Like that 1U server you got in a datacenter with 2 disks in RAID1. If you have thousands of disks replacing is part of the daily routine, and isn't an issue at all (as numbers suggest in article/comments)
    - lsc 13y ago
      That isn't why you buy enterprise drives. Or, at least, I've spent several Porsches worth of money that I could reasonably have spent on Porsches on enterprise drives, and that isn't why I bought enterprise drives. I buy all enterprise drives. Not because I can't handle replacing a disk; I live within walking distance of the coresite santa clara location where most of my servers are, and actually kinda enjoy that sort of thing. (Yes, yes, I'm sick. But what of it?) I pay double for 'enterprise grade' drives because more often than the consumer-grade drives, they fail clean. That's the thing... what does it mean to have a drive "fail?" The vast majority of my failures with consumer grade drives just /degrade/ rather than outright failing. They get shittier and shittier over time. And yes, with sufficient software you can detect this and automatically fail them, but I don't have that. the "enterprise sata" stuff? More often than not, the things actually fail before they degrade to the point where I notice them causing problems with other things. I buy enterprise grade, not because they last longer, (In fact, I see no evidence that they do) but because they tend to work or fail, whereas consumer grade drives exist on a continuum between "working" and "failing" (Of course, even the enterprise stuff isn't 100%... but it's much better.)

chimeracoder 13y ago

> We try to avoid buying enterprise drives at all costs. Why is that? From what I can read on your website, it seems you would be the correct use-case for enterprise drives, no?x

rythie 13y ago
That assumes that you don't think enterprise drives are just marketing ploy, to get execs to part with more of their money for no real benefit.
atYevP 13y ago
We designed our storage pods and software to work in spite of hard drive failures, so paying a $50-$100 premium for a drive just to avoid possibly $5 in labor to replace it when it fails is not a good practice. We go for the good cheap stuff, and that's how we maintain low prices for our actual product, which is online backup. As long as the drives are reliable-ish, and are inexpensive, that's what counts!

rincebrain 13y ago

I can understand the cost/reliability tradeoff given a data storage mechanism that provides enough resiliency, but how do you provide that? Are the drives just single-drive FSes with secret sauce atop it, or commodity RAID-N with something doing resiliency atop that, or ?