4 ms·

Having just spent a couple of weeks in Mexico the amount of paranoia and ignorance that their northern border mates tend to exhibit towards them is just complet

Having just spent a couple of weeks in Mexico the amount of paranoia and ignorance that their northern border mates tend to exhibit towards them is just completely ridiculous.

grecy 13y ago
Agree 100%. I spent 4 months driving South through Mexico and had a fantastic time. I know of at least 50 people that have done the same thing in recent years and they all had the same experience. Mexico is nothing like the American media portrays it to be. Hell, most of the world is nothing like the American media portrays it to be.
thangalin 13y ago
The wall between the United States and Mexico is a make-work project that will be dismantled in two hundred years once humanity grows out of its nationalistic tendencies. The North American countries should loosen borders, not tighten them, paving an open road to unification. Building a border barrier feels like erecting another Berlin Wall. Last I checked, we all live on the same planet, and are all tied to its fate for the foreseeable future.
- CreakyParrot 13y ago
  1. Not defending the concept or execution of that wall, but the list of reasons behind its existence includes many more things than just nationalistic tendencies. If and when it's dismantled, it'll say far more about the relative functioning of the two nations' respective institutions and economies than it will about any decrease in nationalistic tendencies. The original signatories to the Schengen Agreement were some of the most nationalistic countries on the planet, and still are, 29 years later. 2. It only feels like the Berlin Wall if you ignore the fact that the Berlin Wall was built to prevent emigration and defection. 3. You and I live on the same planet; mind if I enter and leave your home without restriction? Mind if everyone else is free to, also? I agree with what you're saying in principal, but the application of ideals is where things become far more complex. Also, it's worth reflecting on the fact that the federal republic of the United States has totally open borders between its 50 states, which is too often taken for granted, and basically provided the model the EU is struggling to imitate.
  - _delirium 13y ago
    Schengen doesn't only include rich Western European countries, though, but quite a bit of economic differences. Bulgaria and Romania are both poorer than Mexico, and yet there's no wall keeping them out of Germany or Scandinavia. Poland was also quite poor when it joined, though it's now slightly wealthier than Mexico.
    - carlob 13y ago
      This is only true for tourism, not true for the job market inside the EU. If you are a French national and want to come work in Italy: no problem, you are treated exactly like an Italian (except for maybe a couple of national security jobs). If you are Romanian you still have to get a work permit.
      - sdoering 13y ago
        Work permit for Romanians: Not anymore since 01.01.2014. Since Romania joined the EU in 2007, its citizens had to wait till this year to be allowed to freely work everywhere in the EU. This led to a lot of polemic and propaganda here in Germany, especially from the right-wing.
        _delirium 13y ago
        Yeah, there's a giant table here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement_for_workers#Transitional_provisions_in_new_member_states https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement_for_worker... After a country joins the EU, its citizens gain full freedom of movement after 7 years maximum. Countries can impose a 2-year transitional period, followed by a 3-year extension, and another 2-year extension, with escalating requirements for what claims need to be made to justify an extension. For example here in Denmark there was only a 2-year transitional period, so Romanians and Bulgarians are free to work here without a permit since 1/1/2009. But a few EU countries, such as Germany and the UK, exercised an extraordinary right to delay implementation for a full 7 years, by asserting "serious labor-market disruption". Italy was in between, applying the 2+3 but not the full 2+3+2 transitional period, so Romanians/Bulgarians may work there without a permit since 1/1/2012. Since 1/1/2014 all transitional periods for Romania and Bulgaria have expired (a transitional period for Croatia is still in effect in some countries). However I was imprecise on the terminology: Romania and Bulgaria are actually not in Schengen yet, so EU states may impose border checks. What they are part of is the free-movement-of-labor zone, which is not quite identical to Schengen.
- guard-of-terra 13y ago
  But we have different agendas on the same planet. For example, some want to live in the middle ages and kill everyone who doesn't. US-Mexico border is an easier border: remove war on drugs and half its reason is gone.
- melling 13y ago
  In two hundred years, hopefully the Mexican economy will become much stronger and we won't need it. There is no wall to the north to Cananda. It's more likely that Americans would want to flee to Cananda than vice versa. Btw, the Berlin Wall was built to keep people in, not keep them out. Understand the difference?

Having just spent a couple of weeks in Mexico the amount of paranoia and ignorance that their northern border mates tend to exhibit towards them is just completely ridiculous.

grecy 13y ago

Agree 100%. I spent 4 months driving South through Mexico and had a fantastic time. I know of at least 50 people that have done the same thing in recent years and they all had the same experience. Mexico is nothing like the American media portrays it to be. Hell, most of the world is nothing like the American media portrays it to be.

thangalin 13y ago

The wall between the United States and Mexico is a make-work project that will be dismantled in two hundred years once humanity grows out of its nationalistic tendencies. The North American countries should loosen borders, not tighten them, paving an open road to unification. Building a border barrier feels like erecting another Berlin Wall. Last I checked, we all live on the same planet, and are all tied to its fate for the foreseeable future.

CreakyParrot 13y ago
1. Not defending the concept or execution of that wall, but the list of reasons behind its existence includes many more things than just nationalistic tendencies. If and when it's dismantled, it'll say far more about the relative functioning of the two nations' respective institutions and economies than it will about any decrease in nationalistic tendencies. The original signatories to the Schengen Agreement were some of the most nationalistic countries on the planet, and still are, 29 years later. 2. It only feels like the Berlin Wall if you ignore the fact that the Berlin Wall was built to prevent emigration and defection. 3. You and I live on the same planet; mind if I enter and leave your home without restriction? Mind if everyone else is free to, also? I agree with what you're saying in principal, but the application of ideals is where things become far more complex. Also, it's worth reflecting on the fact that the federal republic of the United States has totally open borders between its 50 states, which is too often taken for granted, and basically provided the model the EU is struggling to imitate.
- _delirium 13y ago
  Schengen doesn't only include rich Western European countries, though, but quite a bit of economic differences. Bulgaria and Romania are both poorer than Mexico, and yet there's no wall keeping them out of Germany or Scandinavia. Poland was also quite poor when it joined, though it's now slightly wealthier than Mexico.
  - carlob 13y ago
    This is only true for tourism, not true for the job market inside the EU. If you are a French national and want to come work in Italy: no problem, you are treated exactly like an Italian (except for maybe a couple of national security jobs). If you are Romanian you still have to get a work permit.
    - sdoering 13y ago
      Work permit for Romanians: Not anymore since 01.01.2014. Since Romania joined the EU in 2007, its citizens had to wait till this year to be allowed to freely work everywhere in the EU. This led to a lot of polemic and propaganda here in Germany, especially from the right-wing.
      - _delirium 13y ago
        Yeah, there's a giant table here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement_for_workers#Transitional_provisions_in_new_member_states https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement_for_worker... After a country joins the EU, its citizens gain full freedom of movement after 7 years maximum. Countries can impose a 2-year transitional period, followed by a 3-year extension, and another 2-year extension, with escalating requirements for what claims need to be made to justify an extension. For example here in Denmark there was only a 2-year transitional period, so Romanians and Bulgarians are free to work here without a permit since 1/1/2009. But a few EU countries, such as Germany and the UK, exercised an extraordinary right to delay implementation for a full 7 years, by asserting "serious labor-market disruption". Italy was in between, applying the 2+3 but not the full 2+3+2 transitional period, so Romanians/Bulgarians may work there without a permit since 1/1/2012. Since 1/1/2014 all transitional periods for Romania and Bulgaria have expired (a transitional period for Croatia is still in effect in some countries). However I was imprecise on the terminology: Romania and Bulgaria are actually not in Schengen yet, so EU states may impose border checks. What they are part of is the free-movement-of-labor zone, which is not quite identical to Schengen.
guard-of-terra 13y ago
But we have different agendas on the same planet. For example, some want to live in the middle ages and kill everyone who doesn't. US-Mexico border is an easier border: remove war on drugs and half its reason is gone.
melling 13y ago
In two hundred years, hopefully the Mexican economy will become much stronger and we won't need it. There is no wall to the north to Cananda. It's more likely that Americans would want to flee to Cananda than vice versa. Btw, the Berlin Wall was built to keep people in, not keep them out. Understand the difference?