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Please cite references if you're suggesting that people in the U.S. are routinely killed or jailed for life without trial for requesting legal council.

by fjhqjv 13y ago

busterarm 13y ago
http://www.cato.org/raidmap http://www.cato.org/raidmap Here's one. Edit: Hell, it's not even a joke anymore that cops routinely kill the physically and mentally ill. http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/07/justice/north-carolina-teen-killed/ http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/07/justice/north-carolina-teen-ki... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Kelly_Thomas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Kelly_Thomas http://raniakhalek.com/2013/10/08/georgia-police-kill-diabetic-black-man-after-family-calls-911-requesting-ambulance/ http://raniakhalek.com/2013/10/08/georgia-police-kill-diabet... http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/sick-elderly-black-man-was-shot-death http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/sick-elderly-black-ma... http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2019235236_duffy23m.html http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2019235236_duffy23m.h... http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/cops-killed-harlem-man-mix-up-lawsuit-article-1.1542361 http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/cops-killed-ha... http://gothamist.com/2008/09/25/after_cop_tasers_him_naked_man_fall.php http://gothamist.com/2008/09/25/after_cop_tasers_him_naked_m... and even things like http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/mentally-ill-man-froze-to-death-days-after-police-were-called-b99179254z1-239175731.html http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/mentally-ill-man-froz...
- fjhqjv 13y ago
  I never asked for references of police killing civilians, as I'm aware that this happens. I'm specifically interested in references of police killing civilians for requesting legal counsel, especially in the course of questioning. If this isn't something that routinely happens, then it is not a significant danger to the life or liberty of the average citizen to request counsel while being interrogated.
  - busterarm 13y ago
    I know, but it seemed such a ridiculous request. It's a really weak attack on their argument that it's in your personal interest to cooperate with police. It drew the attention to something that wasn't really up for debate and looked more like a troll than anything. Also, these events aren't something that everyone is aware of, so it's more for the public attention than your own. Basically I was just asking for you to say what you just did.
    - fjhqjv 13y ago
      The request was in my initial question. If someone makes an argument that asking for legal counsel has a reasonable chance of leading to being killed or imprisoned for life, I would expect them to backup that assertion with some evidence upon request. Stories about people being killed by police in other contexts don't provide any evidence to support the initial assertion.
      - busterarm 13y ago
        Their point wasn't that asking for legal counsel caused folks to be killed, it was that they think cops are hotheads who will kill you if you don't do as they say. They're saying that someone being questioned by police doesn't have any power so best not to piss the cops off lest one be killed or jailed without trial. They said "for less" in their statement and you acknowledge that it happens, so it doesn't attack their argument to ask for that, it just attacks how they worded it. "citation needed" is just about the most useless thing to contribute to a discussion and based on the other comment I'm not the only one that feels this way. This isn't reddit.
        erichocean 13y ago
        "citation needed" is just about the most useless thing to contribute to a discussion and based on the other comment I'm not the only one that feels this way. This isn't reddit. I though the same thing, until I actually needed the citation myself on a topic I cared about: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7043314 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7043314 So at least "citation needed" is legitimate sometimes. (I totally agree that most of the time, it seems merely argumentative, not knowledge-seeking which is what is the good thing its being concealed behind).
w1ntermute 13y ago
http://www.cato.org/blog/youre-eight-times-more-likely-be-killed-police-officer-terrorist http://www.cato.org/blog/youre-eight-times-more-likely-be-ki...
- erichocean 13y ago
  Clearly we should disarm the police for our own protection. Heh.
alan_cx 13y ago
Hilarious. Bet you didn't expect all those references, aye? ;) Oh, new term : "Cite Troll" Which Im defining as someone who doesnt like something written, so knee jerks in to demaing citations.
- busterarm 13y ago
  I didn't even bother to get to the "jailed without trial" half of his question yet, since that was very publicly signed into law only a couple of years ago and obvious enough to not need rigorous debate. But yeah. http://www.alternet.org/16-year-old-jailed-rikers-3-years-without-trial http://www.alternet.org/16-year-old-jailed-rikers-3-years-wi... And one case most of us are familiar with: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrett_Brown http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrett_Brown http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/01/25/10233835-man-spends-2-years-in-solitary-after-dwi-arrest?lite http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/01/25/10233835-man-spen...
- baddox 13y ago
  I guess this general pattern of police misconduct is only now becoming mainstream, thanks to the Internet. There are probably still a lot of people either ignorant of the pattern or in denial of it. Remember, it took a while for the masses to learn and accept that cops in LA had a pattern for severe mistreatment of African Americans.

Please cite references if you're suggesting that people in the U.S. are routinely killed or jailed for life without trial for requesting legal council.

by fjhqjv 13y ago

Please cite references if you're suggesting that people in the U.S. are routinely killed or jailed for life without trial for requesting legal council.

busterarm 13y ago

http://www.cato.org/raidmap http://www.cato.org/raidmap Here's one. Edit: Hell, it's not even a joke anymore that cops routinely kill the physically and mentally ill. http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/07/justice/north-carolina-teen-killed/ http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/07/justice/north-carolina-teen-ki... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Kelly_Thomas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Kelly_Thomas http://raniakhalek.com/2013/10/08/georgia-police-kill-diabetic-black-man-after-family-calls-911-requesting-ambulance/ http://raniakhalek.com/2013/10/08/georgia-police-kill-diabet... http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/sick-elderly-black-man-was-shot-death http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/sick-elderly-black-ma... http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2019235236_duffy23m.html http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2019235236_duffy23m.h... http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/cops-killed-harlem-man-mix-up-lawsuit-article-1.1542361 http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/cops-killed-ha... http://gothamist.com/2008/09/25/after_cop_tasers_him_naked_man_fall.php http://gothamist.com/2008/09/25/after_cop_tasers_him_naked_m... and even things like http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/mentally-ill-man-froze-to-death-days-after-police-were-called-b99179254z1-239175731.html http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/mentally-ill-man-froz...

fjhqjv 13y ago
I never asked for references of police killing civilians, as I'm aware that this happens. I'm specifically interested in references of police killing civilians for requesting legal counsel, especially in the course of questioning. If this isn't something that routinely happens, then it is not a significant danger to the life or liberty of the average citizen to request counsel while being interrogated.
- busterarm 13y ago
  I know, but it seemed such a ridiculous request. It's a really weak attack on their argument that it's in your personal interest to cooperate with police. It drew the attention to something that wasn't really up for debate and looked more like a troll than anything. Also, these events aren't something that everyone is aware of, so it's more for the public attention than your own. Basically I was just asking for you to say what you just did.
  - fjhqjv 13y ago
    The request was in my initial question. If someone makes an argument that asking for legal counsel has a reasonable chance of leading to being killed or imprisoned for life, I would expect them to backup that assertion with some evidence upon request. Stories about people being killed by police in other contexts don't provide any evidence to support the initial assertion.
    - busterarm 13y ago
      Their point wasn't that asking for legal counsel caused folks to be killed, it was that they think cops are hotheads who will kill you if you don't do as they say. They're saying that someone being questioned by police doesn't have any power so best not to piss the cops off lest one be killed or jailed without trial. They said "for less" in their statement and you acknowledge that it happens, so it doesn't attack their argument to ask for that, it just attacks how they worded it. "citation needed" is just about the most useless thing to contribute to a discussion and based on the other comment I'm not the only one that feels this way. This isn't reddit.
      - erichocean 13y ago
        "citation needed" is just about the most useless thing to contribute to a discussion and based on the other comment I'm not the only one that feels this way. This isn't reddit. I though the same thing, until I actually needed the citation myself on a topic I cared about: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7043314 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7043314 So at least "citation needed" is legitimate sometimes. (I totally agree that most of the time, it seems merely argumentative, not knowledge-seeking which is what is the good thing its being concealed behind).

w1ntermute 13y ago

http://www.cato.org/blog/youre-eight-times-more-likely-be-killed-police-officer-terrorist http://www.cato.org/blog/youre-eight-times-more-likely-be-ki...

erichocean 13y ago
Clearly we should disarm the police for our own protection. Heh.

alan_cx 13y ago

Hilarious. Bet you didn't expect all those references, aye? ;) Oh, new term : "Cite Troll" Which Im defining as someone who doesnt like something written, so knee jerks in to demaing citations.

busterarm 13y ago
I didn't even bother to get to the "jailed without trial" half of his question yet, since that was very publicly signed into law only a couple of years ago and obvious enough to not need rigorous debate. But yeah. http://www.alternet.org/16-year-old-jailed-rikers-3-years-without-trial http://www.alternet.org/16-year-old-jailed-rikers-3-years-wi... And one case most of us are familiar with: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrett_Brown http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrett_Brown http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/01/25/10233835-man-spends-2-years-in-solitary-after-dwi-arrest?lite http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/01/25/10233835-man-spen...
baddox 13y ago
I guess this general pattern of police misconduct is only now becoming mainstream, thanks to the Internet. There are probably still a lot of people either ignorant of the pattern or in denial of it. Remember, it took a while for the masses to learn and accept that cops in LA had a pattern for severe mistreatment of African Americans.