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Never talk to the cops. Period. You can't help yourself by proving you have "nothing to hide." The only word emanating from your vocal cords should be "lawye

Never talk to the cops. Period. You can't help yourself by proving you have "nothing to hide." The only word emanating from your vocal cords should be "lawyer."

baddox 13y ago
That is good legal advice. Not necessarily good advice for a person's well-being. Cops throw people in jail and let them die there, or even kill them directly, for less than this.
- fjhqjv 13y ago
  Please cite references if you're suggesting that people in the U.S. are routinely killed or jailed for life without trial for requesting legal council.
  - busterarm 13y ago
    http://www.cato.org/raidmap http://www.cato.org/raidmap Here's one. Edit: Hell, it's not even a joke anymore that cops routinely kill the physically and mentally ill. http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/07/justice/north-carolina-teen-killed/ http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/07/justice/north-carolina-teen-ki... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Kelly_Thomas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Kelly_Thomas http://raniakhalek.com/2013/10/08/georgia-police-kill-diabetic-black-man-after-family-calls-911-requesting-ambulance/ http://raniakhalek.com/2013/10/08/georgia-police-kill-diabet... http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/sick-elderly-black-man-was-shot-death http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/sick-elderly-black-ma... http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2019235236_duffy23m.html http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2019235236_duffy23m.h... http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/cops-killed-harlem-man-mix-up-lawsuit-article-1.1542361 http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/cops-killed-ha... http://gothamist.com/2008/09/25/after_cop_tasers_him_naked_man_fall.php http://gothamist.com/2008/09/25/after_cop_tasers_him_naked_m... and even things like http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/mentally-ill-man-froze-to-death-days-after-police-were-called-b99179254z1-239175731.html http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/mentally-ill-man-froz...
    - fjhqjv 13y ago
      I never asked for references of police killing civilians, as I'm aware that this happens. I'm specifically interested in references of police killing civilians for requesting legal counsel, especially in the course of questioning. If this isn't something that routinely happens, then it is not a significant danger to the life or liberty of the average citizen to request counsel while being interrogated.
      - busterarm 13y ago
        I know, but it seemed such a ridiculous request. It's a really weak attack on their argument that it's in your personal interest to cooperate with police. It drew the attention to something that wasn't really up for debate and looked more like a troll than anything. Also, these events aren't something that everyone is aware of, so it's more for the public attention than your own. Basically I was just asking for you to say what you just did.
        fjhqjv 13y ago
        The request was in my initial question. If someone makes an argument that asking for legal counsel has a reasonable chance of leading to being killed or imprisoned for life, I would expect them to backup that assertion with some evidence upon request. Stories about people being killed by police in other contexts don't provide any evidence to support the initial assertion.
        busterarm 13y ago
        Their point wasn't that asking for legal counsel caused folks to be killed, it was that they think cops are hotheads who will kill you if you don't do as they say. They're saying that someone being questioned by police doesn't have any power so best not to piss the cops off lest one be killed or jailed without trial. They said "for less" in their statement and you acknowledge that it happens, so it doesn't attack their argument to ask for that, it just attacks how they worded it. "citation needed" is just about the most useless thing to contribute to a discussion and based on the other comment I'm not the only one that feels this way. This isn't reddit.
  - w1ntermute 13y ago
    http://www.cato.org/blog/youre-eight-times-more-likely-be-killed-police-officer-terrorist http://www.cato.org/blog/youre-eight-times-more-likely-be-ki...
    - erichocean 13y ago
      Clearly we should disarm the police for our own protection. Heh.
  - alan_cx 13y ago
    Hilarious. Bet you didn't expect all those references, aye? ;) Oh, new term : "Cite Troll" Which Im defining as someone who doesnt like something written, so knee jerks in to demaing citations.
    - busterarm 13y ago
      I didn't even bother to get to the "jailed without trial" half of his question yet, since that was very publicly signed into law only a couple of years ago and obvious enough to not need rigorous debate. But yeah. http://www.alternet.org/16-year-old-jailed-rikers-3-years-without-trial http://www.alternet.org/16-year-old-jailed-rikers-3-years-wi... And one case most of us are familiar with: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrett_Brown http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrett_Brown http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/01/25/10233835-man-spends-2-years-in-solitary-after-dwi-arrest?lite http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/01/25/10233835-man-spen...
    - baddox 13y ago
      I guess this general pattern of police misconduct is only now becoming mainstream, thanks to the Internet. There are probably still a lot of people either ignorant of the pattern or in denial of it. Remember, it took a while for the masses to learn and accept that cops in LA had a pattern for severe mistreatment of African Americans.
fragsworth 13y ago
> Never talk to cops Everyone says this, but how certain are you that it's the best plan in every circumstance? Can requesting for a lawyer reduce the amount of time you're detained? The guy was held for about 3.5 hours. If he required access to a lawyer, how long would they have detained him? And then how much would the lawyer charge? Are you sure it would have been worth it?
- jakejake 13y ago
  It's true that if he said nothing he might have been taken to jail for 8 hours instead of being detained for 3.5 hours. But it's also possible that he talked and talked until eventually, under stress, he said something stupid that led to a conviction with a 2 year prison sentence. It's basically just a gamble with your life. There's nothing wrong with being polite, but insistent on having a lawyer with you when you speak to the police. Tell them that you will be happy to talk with your lawyer present. If the police are questioning you then there's an excellent chance that what they are really trying to do is to build a case. The more you talk, the more things can be used to make you appear guilty in court - even if they don't seem significant to you. That is why you don't talk to the police - even if it means sitting in jail for a day.
- midas007 13y ago
  It's called common sense.
- Bluestrike2 13y ago
  The concern that you might extend the length of your detention in the short-term is inconsequential compared to the possibility that your cooperation can and will be used against you. You aren't trying to manipulate the police into letting you go home earlier; instead, you're trying to avoid doing anything that may increase the likelihood of your being found guilty of criminal charges. There are plenty of interviews online where police officers, lawyers, and judges alike can't come up with even a single example of where someone was able to talk their way out of charges. The popular "Don't talk to the police" video is just one of them. Hell, Salinas v. Texas makes it abundantly clear that you can screw yourself right into jail even when you do remain silent but make the mistake of appearing uncomfortable during questioning. In short, there are just too many opportunities for even an intelligent, innocent person to stumble straight into jail.

Never talk to the cops. Period. You can't help yourself by proving you have "nothing to hide." The only word emanating from your vocal cords should be "lawyer."

baddox 13y ago

That is good legal advice. Not necessarily good advice for a person's well-being. Cops throw people in jail and let them die there, or even kill them directly, for less than this.

fjhqjv 13y ago
Please cite references if you're suggesting that people in the U.S. are routinely killed or jailed for life without trial for requesting legal council.
- busterarm 13y ago
  http://www.cato.org/raidmap http://www.cato.org/raidmap Here's one. Edit: Hell, it's not even a joke anymore that cops routinely kill the physically and mentally ill. http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/07/justice/north-carolina-teen-killed/ http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/07/justice/north-carolina-teen-ki... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Kelly_Thomas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Kelly_Thomas http://raniakhalek.com/2013/10/08/georgia-police-kill-diabetic-black-man-after-family-calls-911-requesting-ambulance/ http://raniakhalek.com/2013/10/08/georgia-police-kill-diabet... http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/sick-elderly-black-man-was-shot-death http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/sick-elderly-black-ma... http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2019235236_duffy23m.html http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2019235236_duffy23m.h... http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/cops-killed-harlem-man-mix-up-lawsuit-article-1.1542361 http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/cops-killed-ha... http://gothamist.com/2008/09/25/after_cop_tasers_him_naked_man_fall.php http://gothamist.com/2008/09/25/after_cop_tasers_him_naked_m... and even things like http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/mentally-ill-man-froze-to-death-days-after-police-were-called-b99179254z1-239175731.html http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/mentally-ill-man-froz...
  - fjhqjv 13y ago
    I never asked for references of police killing civilians, as I'm aware that this happens. I'm specifically interested in references of police killing civilians for requesting legal counsel, especially in the course of questioning. If this isn't something that routinely happens, then it is not a significant danger to the life or liberty of the average citizen to request counsel while being interrogated.
    - busterarm 13y ago
      I know, but it seemed such a ridiculous request. It's a really weak attack on their argument that it's in your personal interest to cooperate with police. It drew the attention to something that wasn't really up for debate and looked more like a troll than anything. Also, these events aren't something that everyone is aware of, so it's more for the public attention than your own. Basically I was just asking for you to say what you just did.
      - fjhqjv 13y ago
        The request was in my initial question. If someone makes an argument that asking for legal counsel has a reasonable chance of leading to being killed or imprisoned for life, I would expect them to backup that assertion with some evidence upon request. Stories about people being killed by police in other contexts don't provide any evidence to support the initial assertion.
        busterarm 13y ago
        Their point wasn't that asking for legal counsel caused folks to be killed, it was that they think cops are hotheads who will kill you if you don't do as they say. They're saying that someone being questioned by police doesn't have any power so best not to piss the cops off lest one be killed or jailed without trial. They said "for less" in their statement and you acknowledge that it happens, so it doesn't attack their argument to ask for that, it just attacks how they worded it. "citation needed" is just about the most useless thing to contribute to a discussion and based on the other comment I'm not the only one that feels this way. This isn't reddit.
- w1ntermute 13y ago
  http://www.cato.org/blog/youre-eight-times-more-likely-be-killed-police-officer-terrorist http://www.cato.org/blog/youre-eight-times-more-likely-be-ki...
  - erichocean 13y ago
    Clearly we should disarm the police for our own protection. Heh.
- alan_cx 13y ago
  Hilarious. Bet you didn't expect all those references, aye? ;) Oh, new term : "Cite Troll" Which Im defining as someone who doesnt like something written, so knee jerks in to demaing citations.
  - busterarm 13y ago
    I didn't even bother to get to the "jailed without trial" half of his question yet, since that was very publicly signed into law only a couple of years ago and obvious enough to not need rigorous debate. But yeah. http://www.alternet.org/16-year-old-jailed-rikers-3-years-without-trial http://www.alternet.org/16-year-old-jailed-rikers-3-years-wi... And one case most of us are familiar with: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrett_Brown http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrett_Brown http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/01/25/10233835-man-spends-2-years-in-solitary-after-dwi-arrest?lite http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/01/25/10233835-man-spen...
  - baddox 13y ago
    I guess this general pattern of police misconduct is only now becoming mainstream, thanks to the Internet. There are probably still a lot of people either ignorant of the pattern or in denial of it. Remember, it took a while for the masses to learn and accept that cops in LA had a pattern for severe mistreatment of African Americans.

fragsworth 13y ago

> Never talk to cops Everyone says this, but how certain are you that it's the best plan in every circumstance? Can requesting for a lawyer reduce the amount of time you're detained? The guy was held for about 3.5 hours. If he required access to a lawyer, how long would they have detained him? And then how much would the lawyer charge? Are you sure it would have been worth it?

jakejake 13y ago
It's true that if he said nothing he might have been taken to jail for 8 hours instead of being detained for 3.5 hours. But it's also possible that he talked and talked until eventually, under stress, he said something stupid that led to a conviction with a 2 year prison sentence. It's basically just a gamble with your life. There's nothing wrong with being polite, but insistent on having a lawyer with you when you speak to the police. Tell them that you will be happy to talk with your lawyer present. If the police are questioning you then there's an excellent chance that what they are really trying to do is to build a case. The more you talk, the more things can be used to make you appear guilty in court - even if they don't seem significant to you. That is why you don't talk to the police - even if it means sitting in jail for a day.
midas007 13y ago
It's called common sense.
Bluestrike2 13y ago
The concern that you might extend the length of your detention in the short-term is inconsequential compared to the possibility that your cooperation can and will be used against you. You aren't trying to manipulate the police into letting you go home earlier; instead, you're trying to avoid doing anything that may increase the likelihood of your being found guilty of criminal charges. There are plenty of interviews online where police officers, lawyers, and judges alike can't come up with even a single example of where someone was able to talk their way out of charges. The popular "Don't talk to the police" video is just one of them. Hell, Salinas v. Texas makes it abundantly clear that you can screw yourself right into jail even when you do remain silent but make the mistake of appearing uncomfortable during questioning. In short, there are just too many opportunities for even an intelligent, innocent person to stumble straight into jail.