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> So why does she matter? Because regardless of the reality, programming is still seen by the masses as a well paid janitorial function that only uncool, social

by eshvk 13y ago

> So why does she matter? Because regardless of the reality, programming is still seen by the masses as a well paid janitorial function that only uncool, socially inept, nerdy males should do. (Notice that I didn't say could but should.) This is why a lot of people have a "I'm too good to stoop down and do this" attitude, when it comes to things like programming. "That guy should do it instead of me." Programming or most technical occupations just don't command the same level of respect in the West like a finance, legal, or medical job does regardless of the pay. And the reality is that a lot of programming jobs are well paid janitorial functions. There is a lot of self delusion happening in the American programming industry that one needs to be a certain level of smartness (Observe posts on how all genius programmers have been programming since their youth). It really doesn't. There is nothing inherently complicated about most pieces of software related work. Note that this doesn't necessarily mean that there is not a lot of hard work in doing this efficiently. It is just that American programmers are loud and opinionated on how it takes years and years to become a good programmer. In India and China, people don't spend time thinking about the level of intellect required to write code, they just do it. In fact, dozens and dozens of them, of both genders. Now, there is a lot of that code that is bad. Yet, that is merely the normal distribution working at scale. People need to think of programming as another job. Just because you were a snowflake and were oppressed in your high school doesn't mean that whatever you do in life is touched with some special magic that makes it inherently removed by people of other sub-cultures.

chaostheory 13y ago
Going on a tangent, I disagree. While a lot of programmers in the West care about how smart someone is, we care more about how disciplined they are and whether or not they like what they're doing (more on this below). > Now, there is a lot of that code that is bad. Yet, that is merely the normal distribution working at scale. No. I feel that the majority of bad code that comes from those places is more due to culture than anything else. There's a mentality of "let's just get this done the fastest way possible without thinking about maintenance or the future." They don't really care about their work; they only care about the money it brings. There's no love for programming. It's just clock in and clock out. Regardless of how smart someone is, this type of thinking doesn't lead to quality code. (to be fair ppl like this exist here as well, just not as widespread or in the same proportion) Then there's the diploma mills that churn out graduates with no skills or preparation for a programming job... but that's another story. EDIT: It also doesn't help that the best and brightest in both places tend to leave for the West. > People need to think of programming as another job. This is the kind of thinking that leads to shitty work. It's hard for people to excel or churn out quality products when they're doing something for a paycheck that they don't really like doing.
- eshvk 13y ago
  I completely disagree with both assertions. 1. On the idea that somehow technical debt is culturally ingrained in certain societies. Silicon Valley is filled with countless programmers who continually drum the ship the shit out philosophy. If you haven't worked there, a rough sample of this forum's blog posts by clueless founders should indicate that. I have worked in enough American run American programmer driven companies to know that technical debt is not an abstraction. It is a reality that is reflected by programmer pressures. So it is not culture specific unless the culture you are talking about is programmer culture. 2. On the idea that western programmers care more about discipline rather than smarts. Programming interviews as evidenced by personal experience and the realms of rants written online are a perfect reflector of the fallacy of that assertion. How the fuck is writing depth first search or some other bullshit graph search algorithm in 2 minutes any sign that you are a good programmer to design an iOS app?
  - chaostheory 13y ago
    > 1. On the idea that somehow technical debt is culturally ingrained in certain societies. It is. I can speak confidently about it (at least for China) since my family is from there, I was born in the region, and I worked in East Asia for period of time. I know the culture(s). Whether or not they are right or wrong, my Indian friends and colleagues have confirmed the same problem in their country of origin. Culture does matter in general and it affects things like technical debt. It's the reason why the US favors lawyers and bankers over engineers and programmers (and why Asia will most likely eclipse us in the long run), and the same reason that places like Japan have a dearth of entrepreneurs due to their fear of failure and aversion to risk. On a whole, people in mainland China just don't give a shit about anyone outside of their family (and maybe maybe their friends and even this is a stretch since it's a low trust society). All they really care about is maximizing their economic gains and increasing their social status. The cost (i.e. who you screw over) doesn't matter as long as it doesn't directly hurt anyone in their extended blood related family. Quality and a lot of other things suffer from this pervasive way of thinking. > 2. On the idea that western programmers care more about discipline rather than smarts. Maybe hot startups focus solely on smarts, but larger, older, and less hip companies tend to care more about experience and just competence (i.e. can you understand the work and get things done that doesn't end up being spaghetti?) instead of how brilliant you are.

by eshvk 13y ago

chaostheory 13y ago

Going on a tangent, I disagree. While a lot of programmers in the West care about how smart someone is, we care more about how disciplined they are and whether or not they like what they're doing (more on this below). > Now, there is a lot of that code that is bad. Yet, that is merely the normal distribution working at scale. No. I feel that the majority of bad code that comes from those places is more due to culture than anything else. There's a mentality of "let's just get this done the fastest way possible without thinking about maintenance or the future." They don't really care about their work; they only care about the money it brings. There's no love for programming. It's just clock in and clock out. Regardless of how smart someone is, this type of thinking doesn't lead to quality code. (to be fair ppl like this exist here as well, just not as widespread or in the same proportion) Then there's the diploma mills that churn out graduates with no skills or preparation for a programming job... but that's another story. EDIT: It also doesn't help that the best and brightest in both places tend to leave for the West. > People need to think of programming as another job. This is the kind of thinking that leads to shitty work. It's hard for people to excel or churn out quality products when they're doing something for a paycheck that they don't really like doing.

eshvk 13y ago
I completely disagree with both assertions. 1. On the idea that somehow technical debt is culturally ingrained in certain societies. Silicon Valley is filled with countless programmers who continually drum the ship the shit out philosophy. If you haven't worked there, a rough sample of this forum's blog posts by clueless founders should indicate that. I have worked in enough American run American programmer driven companies to know that technical debt is not an abstraction. It is a reality that is reflected by programmer pressures. So it is not culture specific unless the culture you are talking about is programmer culture. 2. On the idea that western programmers care more about discipline rather than smarts. Programming interviews as evidenced by personal experience and the realms of rants written online are a perfect reflector of the fallacy of that assertion. How the fuck is writing depth first search or some other bullshit graph search algorithm in 2 minutes any sign that you are a good programmer to design an iOS app?
- chaostheory 13y ago
  > 1. On the idea that somehow technical debt is culturally ingrained in certain societies. It is. I can speak confidently about it (at least for China) since my family is from there, I was born in the region, and I worked in East Asia for period of time. I know the culture(s). Whether or not they are right or wrong, my Indian friends and colleagues have confirmed the same problem in their country of origin. Culture does matter in general and it affects things like technical debt. It's the reason why the US favors lawyers and bankers over engineers and programmers (and why Asia will most likely eclipse us in the long run), and the same reason that places like Japan have a dearth of entrepreneurs due to their fear of failure and aversion to risk. On a whole, people in mainland China just don't give a shit about anyone outside of their family (and maybe maybe their friends and even this is a stretch since it's a low trust society). All they really care about is maximizing their economic gains and increasing their social status. The cost (i.e. who you screw over) doesn't matter as long as it doesn't directly hurt anyone in their extended blood related family. Quality and a lot of other things suffer from this pervasive way of thinking. > 2. On the idea that western programmers care more about discipline rather than smarts. Maybe hot startups focus solely on smarts, but larger, older, and less hip companies tend to care more about experience and just competence (i.e. can you understand the work and get things done that doesn't end up being spaghetti?) instead of how brilliant you are.