5 ms·

I hope I'm not the only one that feels this way, but seriously, who gives a shit? Look, I'm a 30-something overweight white male programmer. I probably spend e

by geuis 13y ago

I hope I'm not the only one that feels this way, but seriously, who gives a shit? Look, I'm a 30-something overweight white male programmer. I probably spend equal time, if not more, communicating with people around the world based on their ideas and what they write rather than their physical person. What this means is that I don't care if you're a gay paraplegic cross dressing dolphin, a woman that can't leave her house in the deepest parts of Saudi Arabia, a 12 year old in Australia, or another guy just like me. It. Doesn't. Matter. I'm sure if you're reading this, you know the old joke that no one knows you're a dog behind a keyboard. If you have good ideas and are willing to talk about them, what your background is just doesn't really matter. I've been around long enough that I've talked to everyone, from billionaire kids to poor grandparents. People's ideas and thoughts are more important than anything else to me. I'm glad that this person has had success in multiple areas. Is it remarkable as a news-worthy event? Maybe for CNN, but they aren't exactly a reputable news source these days. For me, and hopefully others, she's just a good programmer. In the end, all that matters is someone's ability to think. Whether they're a supermodel or a dog doesn't fucking matter.

chaostheory 13y ago
Yes for us, stuff like this doesn't matter since it's all about ability. So why does she matter? Because regardless of the reality, programming is still seen by the masses as a well paid janitorial function that only uncool, socially inept, nerdy males should do. (Notice that I didn't say could but should.) This is why a lot of people have a "I'm too good to stoop down and do this" attitude, when it comes to things like programming. "That guy should do it instead of me." Programming or most technical occupations just don't command the same level of respect in the West like a finance, legal, or medical job does regardless of the pay. People like Scott give programming a cool and acceptable image for non-techies and people still deciding what they want to be in the future. imo, the main reason females aren't into stuff like programming is because of its negative social perception. LAST EDIT: When I think about it, I'm surprised I haven't read anything addressing this problem when it comes to attracting more females to tech.
- eshvk 13y ago
  > So why does she matter? Because regardless of the reality, programming is still seen by the masses as a well paid janitorial function that only uncool, socially inept, nerdy males should do. (Notice that I didn't say could but should.) This is why a lot of people have a "I'm too good to stoop down and do this" attitude, when it comes to things like programming. "That guy should do it instead of me." Programming or most technical occupations just don't command the same level of respect in the West like a finance, legal, or medical job does regardless of the pay. And the reality is that a lot of programming jobs are well paid janitorial functions. There is a lot of self delusion happening in the American programming industry that one needs to be a certain level of smartness (Observe posts on how all genius programmers have been programming since their youth). It really doesn't. There is nothing inherently complicated about most pieces of software related work. Note that this doesn't necessarily mean that there is not a lot of hard work in doing this efficiently. It is just that American programmers are loud and opinionated on how it takes years and years to become a good programmer. In India and China, people don't spend time thinking about the level of intellect required to write code, they just do it. In fact, dozens and dozens of them, of both genders. Now, there is a lot of that code that is bad. Yet, that is merely the normal distribution working at scale. People need to think of programming as another job. Just because you were a snowflake and were oppressed in your high school doesn't mean that whatever you do in life is touched with some special magic that makes it inherently removed by people of other sub-cultures.
  - chaostheory 13y ago
    Going on a tangent, I disagree. While a lot of programmers in the West care about how smart someone is, we care more about how disciplined they are and whether or not they like what they're doing (more on this below). > Now, there is a lot of that code that is bad. Yet, that is merely the normal distribution working at scale. No. I feel that the majority of bad code that comes from those places is more due to culture than anything else. There's a mentality of "let's just get this done the fastest way possible without thinking about maintenance or the future." They don't really care about their work; they only care about the money it brings. There's no love for programming. It's just clock in and clock out. Regardless of how smart someone is, this type of thinking doesn't lead to quality code. (to be fair ppl like this exist here as well, just not as widespread or in the same proportion) Then there's the diploma mills that churn out graduates with no skills or preparation for a programming job... but that's another story. EDIT: It also doesn't help that the best and brightest in both places tend to leave for the West. > People need to think of programming as another job. This is the kind of thinking that leads to shitty work. It's hard for people to excel or churn out quality products when they're doing something for a paycheck that they don't really like doing.
vezzy-fnord 13y ago
I agree with you. Although I guess there are arguments to be made about covering this to show potential role models from different backgrounds, it still isn't anything particularly noteworthy. I also have very mixed feelings about the term "geek" being used. It seems to be thrown around for everything nowadays, from people who watch Doctor Who to people who are actually deeply invested in STEM. It's a good and admirable skill to have these days, being able to throw an iOS app, but the term has really lost its weight.
yapcguy 13y ago
She's not any old model, she's a "supermodel" (gasp!) so of course everything she does is special and newsworthy...
- supersystem 13y ago
  ...he said on _hacker_ news.
- scotty79 13y ago
  I think term supermodel has some meaning. Model is like mom & pap shop or lifestyle business. Supermodel is like Bezos or Zukerberg. So far she is a supermodel who codes, not a ninja coder that models.
- aestra 13y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermodel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermodel
xionon 13y ago
I think articles like this help to "normalize" programming as a career for people that aren't nerdy white dudes. The hypothesis goes, a lot of [women,minorities] don't go into [programming,finance,etc] because they don't see it as a career that people like themselves can or do choose. Puff pieces about "this person who is like you or who you aspire to be like is also into [programming,finance,etc]" help them visualize themselves choosing this career. You may not agree, but I think having more women and minorities in programming would be a good thing. Because I think that articles like this are a way to help get young women and minorities interested in programming, I like that this article exists, even though it wasn't written for me.
- Bramble 13y ago
  While it might help "normalize" a programming career, it also reinforces the idea that no matter what a woman has accomplished (or is capable of) in her career, her physical appearance is at least as important when evaluating her accomplishments. Full disclosure: I am a woman. I am also a student and CS major. I happen to be conventionally attractive, and rather than inspiring me, this kind of article contributes to certain fears I have, going into the industry. If we want to inspire young girls to be interested in programming, we should highlight the work of people like Marissa Meyer, who have worked really hard over many years...not give them the impression that being born tall and beautiful is as important as their resumes.
  - eshvk 13y ago
    > If we want to inspire young girls to be interested in programming, we should highlight the work of people like Marissa Meyer, who have worked really hard over many years...not give them the impression that being born tall and beautiful is as important as their resumes. It is funny you say that because guess what showed up on my Linkedin news feed the other day. [1] [1] http://qz.com/166317/why-it-makes-sense-to-pay-beautiful-ceos-more http://qz.com/166317/why-it-makes-sense-to-pay-beautiful-ceo...
    - Bramble 13y ago
      I am aware that Marissa Meyer's looks are often spoken of. However, before she was a CEO, she earned degrees from some of the world's most highly ranked universities and did interesting work for another 13 years. Regarding the article you posted - the advantage that attractive people have in the workplace is not limited to women; attractive men also earn this benefit. In fact, some studies show that if attractive women are applying for typically male-dominated fields, they are rated more negatively than their unattractive counterparts. Attractive males do not experience a noted disadvantage when applying for any job. Further info on this phenomenon: http://www.hofstra.edu/pdf/orsp_shahani-denning_spring03.pdf http://www.hofstra.edu/pdf/orsp_shahani-denning_spring03.pdf
nathanvanfleet 13y ago
Because to encourage women to become programmers would require them to understand it's not just for the overweight 30-something males. But yes, the article wasn't great, CNN as you say.
wj 13y ago
Your comment reeks of elitism (though much of the ones in this article do as well). I'm pretty sure that this article wasn't written with HN mind as the audience. Your reaction seemed a bit strong to me. Can you tell me what you find to be a reputable news source? I'm not saying CNN is the best news source but they have to at least be in the top ten of news networks in the U.S. Maybe even in the top five? And if you haven't noticed the general public does like "human interest" news. IMHO this is a step up from the local news in LA. It is at least positive rather than the overwhelmingly negative news that I seem to come across. Anything that possibly encourages more young people (women) to get into programming should be encouraged (again IMHO). TLDR...don't hate.
scotty79 13y ago
On one hand you are kind of right that when you care about software or creations in general it does't matter if it was created by a supermodelor a dog. But the article is about real world. And in real world your creation has different value depending on whether you are Jackson Pollock or Johnny, age 5. She as a black female supermodel can have much more impact on the world with her coding that overweight white guy that does exactly the same.
matdes 13y ago
so mr. egalitarian, I'm so blind-I-only-see-ability. You're telling me, with no question, if you were to see this woman in the middle of the street, you would think she could absolutely be a coder? You're telling me if you saw her at a conference, you would think she was there as an expert, and not to find a husband, or was part of the booth babes or help staff? You're telling me if you saw her on the roster to speak at a conference, you'd think she got it because of her prowess and intellect, and not because she dolled up?
- wutbrodo 13y ago
  I can't speak for "Mr Egalitarian", as you put it, but I can confidently say yes to all of those things (or more precisely, I wouldn't assume any of those things any less or more than if I saw an Asian man). Knowing the probability of a tech person being a certain race or gender doesn't mean one is forced to apply that knowledge, particularly when one is aware of the human cost of that kind of stereotyping/pidgeonholing. It sounds like you're just projecting a lot of racial and/or gender issues that you have onto the author of the parent comment.
  - matdes 13y ago
    lol, okay. whatever u say, bro.
    - wutbrodo 13y ago
      I'm glad we're in agreement. It's all too rare to find people who are so easily convinced even when they're very wrong; kudos.
tasty_freeze 13y ago
Hooray for you, Mr. Colorblind, that you don't care about her looks, race, or gender. Unfortunately, women and black people (in the US at least) don't get to breezily dismiss it. The fact that you are apparently unaware of this leads me to think that you are exactly the kind of person who could do with a privilege audit.
- vezzy-fnord 13y ago
  Caring about people's racial characteristics is racist. Not caring about people's racial characteristics is "colorblindness" and also racist. That really is a catch-22 scenario.
  - tasty_freeze 13y ago
    You have funny definitions. As far as a hiring manager goes, sure, he should care about the persons ability. But this wasn't an interview -- he was commenting on an article about someone living in the real world. In the US, there are still significant racial and gender issues. Ignoring them because you are "color blind" is not a commendable trait. It isn't racist; it is ignoring racism.
jamesbritt 13y ago
For those curious about "no one knows you're a dog" it's from a Peter Steiner cartoon that ran 20 years ago: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/comic-riffs/post/nobody-knows-youre-a-dog-as-iconic-internet-cartoon-turns-20-creator-peter-steiner-knows-the-joke-rings-as-relevant-as-ever/2013/07/31/73372600-f98d-11e2-8e84-c56731a202fb_blog.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/comic-riffs/post/nobody-...

by geuis 13y ago

chaostheory 13y ago

Yes for us, stuff like this doesn't matter since it's all about ability. So why does she matter? Because regardless of the reality, programming is still seen by the masses as a well paid janitorial function that only uncool, socially inept, nerdy males should do. (Notice that I didn't say could but should.) This is why a lot of people have a "I'm too good to stoop down and do this" attitude, when it comes to things like programming. "That guy should do it instead of me." Programming or most technical occupations just don't command the same level of respect in the West like a finance, legal, or medical job does regardless of the pay. People like Scott give programming a cool and acceptable image for non-techies and people still deciding what they want to be in the future. imo, the main reason females aren't into stuff like programming is because of its negative social perception. LAST EDIT: When I think about it, I'm surprised I haven't read anything addressing this problem when it comes to attracting more females to tech.

eshvk 13y ago
> So why does she matter? Because regardless of the reality, programming is still seen by the masses as a well paid janitorial function that only uncool, socially inept, nerdy males should do. (Notice that I didn't say could but should.) This is why a lot of people have a "I'm too good to stoop down and do this" attitude, when it comes to things like programming. "That guy should do it instead of me." Programming or most technical occupations just don't command the same level of respect in the West like a finance, legal, or medical job does regardless of the pay. And the reality is that a lot of programming jobs are well paid janitorial functions. There is a lot of self delusion happening in the American programming industry that one needs to be a certain level of smartness (Observe posts on how all genius programmers have been programming since their youth). It really doesn't. There is nothing inherently complicated about most pieces of software related work. Note that this doesn't necessarily mean that there is not a lot of hard work in doing this efficiently. It is just that American programmers are loud and opinionated on how it takes years and years to become a good programmer. In India and China, people don't spend time thinking about the level of intellect required to write code, they just do it. In fact, dozens and dozens of them, of both genders. Now, there is a lot of that code that is bad. Yet, that is merely the normal distribution working at scale. People need to think of programming as another job. Just because you were a snowflake and were oppressed in your high school doesn't mean that whatever you do in life is touched with some special magic that makes it inherently removed by people of other sub-cultures.
- chaostheory 13y ago
  Going on a tangent, I disagree. While a lot of programmers in the West care about how smart someone is, we care more about how disciplined they are and whether or not they like what they're doing (more on this below). > Now, there is a lot of that code that is bad. Yet, that is merely the normal distribution working at scale. No. I feel that the majority of bad code that comes from those places is more due to culture than anything else. There's a mentality of "let's just get this done the fastest way possible without thinking about maintenance or the future." They don't really care about their work; they only care about the money it brings. There's no love for programming. It's just clock in and clock out. Regardless of how smart someone is, this type of thinking doesn't lead to quality code. (to be fair ppl like this exist here as well, just not as widespread or in the same proportion) Then there's the diploma mills that churn out graduates with no skills or preparation for a programming job... but that's another story. EDIT: It also doesn't help that the best and brightest in both places tend to leave for the West. > People need to think of programming as another job. This is the kind of thinking that leads to shitty work. It's hard for people to excel or churn out quality products when they're doing something for a paycheck that they don't really like doing.

vezzy-fnord 13y ago

I agree with you. Although I guess there are arguments to be made about covering this to show potential role models from different backgrounds, it still isn't anything particularly noteworthy. I also have very mixed feelings about the term "geek" being used. It seems to be thrown around for everything nowadays, from people who watch Doctor Who to people who are actually deeply invested in STEM. It's a good and admirable skill to have these days, being able to throw an iOS app, but the term has really lost its weight.

yapcguy 13y ago

She's not any old model, she's a "supermodel" (gasp!) so of course everything she does is special and newsworthy...

supersystem 13y ago
...he said on _hacker_ news.
scotty79 13y ago
I think term supermodel has some meaning. Model is like mom & pap shop or lifestyle business. Supermodel is like Bezos or Zukerberg. So far she is a supermodel who codes, not a ninja coder that models.
aestra 13y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermodel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermodel

xionon 13y ago

I think articles like this help to "normalize" programming as a career for people that aren't nerdy white dudes. The hypothesis goes, a lot of [women,minorities] don't go into [programming,finance,etc] because they don't see it as a career that people like themselves can or do choose. Puff pieces about "this person who is like you or who you aspire to be like is also into [programming,finance,etc]" help them visualize themselves choosing this career. You may not agree, but I think having more women and minorities in programming would be a good thing. Because I think that articles like this are a way to help get young women and minorities interested in programming, I like that this article exists, even though it wasn't written for me.

Bramble 13y ago
While it might help "normalize" a programming career, it also reinforces the idea that no matter what a woman has accomplished (or is capable of) in her career, her physical appearance is at least as important when evaluating her accomplishments. Full disclosure: I am a woman. I am also a student and CS major. I happen to be conventionally attractive, and rather than inspiring me, this kind of article contributes to certain fears I have, going into the industry. If we want to inspire young girls to be interested in programming, we should highlight the work of people like Marissa Meyer, who have worked really hard over many years...not give them the impression that being born tall and beautiful is as important as their resumes.
- eshvk 13y ago
  > If we want to inspire young girls to be interested in programming, we should highlight the work of people like Marissa Meyer, who have worked really hard over many years...not give them the impression that being born tall and beautiful is as important as their resumes. It is funny you say that because guess what showed up on my Linkedin news feed the other day. [1] [1] http://qz.com/166317/why-it-makes-sense-to-pay-beautiful-ceos-more http://qz.com/166317/why-it-makes-sense-to-pay-beautiful-ceo...
  - Bramble 13y ago
    I am aware that Marissa Meyer's looks are often spoken of. However, before she was a CEO, she earned degrees from some of the world's most highly ranked universities and did interesting work for another 13 years. Regarding the article you posted - the advantage that attractive people have in the workplace is not limited to women; attractive men also earn this benefit. In fact, some studies show that if attractive women are applying for typically male-dominated fields, they are rated more negatively than their unattractive counterparts. Attractive males do not experience a noted disadvantage when applying for any job. Further info on this phenomenon: http://www.hofstra.edu/pdf/orsp_shahani-denning_spring03.pdf http://www.hofstra.edu/pdf/orsp_shahani-denning_spring03.pdf

nathanvanfleet 13y ago

Because to encourage women to become programmers would require them to understand it's not just for the overweight 30-something males. But yes, the article wasn't great, CNN as you say.

wj 13y ago

Your comment reeks of elitism (though much of the ones in this article do as well). I'm pretty sure that this article wasn't written with HN mind as the audience. Your reaction seemed a bit strong to me. Can you tell me what you find to be a reputable news source? I'm not saying CNN is the best news source but they have to at least be in the top ten of news networks in the U.S. Maybe even in the top five? And if you haven't noticed the general public does like "human interest" news. IMHO this is a step up from the local news in LA. It is at least positive rather than the overwhelmingly negative news that I seem to come across. Anything that possibly encourages more young people (women) to get into programming should be encouraged (again IMHO). TLDR...don't hate.

scotty79 13y ago

On one hand you are kind of right that when you care about software or creations in general it does't matter if it was created by a supermodelor a dog. But the article is about real world. And in real world your creation has different value depending on whether you are Jackson Pollock or Johnny, age 5. She as a black female supermodel can have much more impact on the world with her coding that overweight white guy that does exactly the same.

matdes 13y ago

so mr. egalitarian, I'm so blind-I-only-see-ability. You're telling me, with no question, if you were to see this woman in the middle of the street, you would think she could absolutely be a coder? You're telling me if you saw her at a conference, you would think she was there as an expert, and not to find a husband, or was part of the booth babes or help staff? You're telling me if you saw her on the roster to speak at a conference, you'd think she got it because of her prowess and intellect, and not because she dolled up?

wutbrodo 13y ago
I can't speak for "Mr Egalitarian", as you put it, but I can confidently say yes to all of those things (or more precisely, I wouldn't assume any of those things any less or more than if I saw an Asian man). Knowing the probability of a tech person being a certain race or gender doesn't mean one is forced to apply that knowledge, particularly when one is aware of the human cost of that kind of stereotyping/pidgeonholing. It sounds like you're just projecting a lot of racial and/or gender issues that you have onto the author of the parent comment.
- matdes 13y ago
  lol, okay. whatever u say, bro.
  - wutbrodo 13y ago
    I'm glad we're in agreement. It's all too rare to find people who are so easily convinced even when they're very wrong; kudos.

tasty_freeze 13y ago

Hooray for you, Mr. Colorblind, that you don't care about her looks, race, or gender. Unfortunately, women and black people (in the US at least) don't get to breezily dismiss it. The fact that you are apparently unaware of this leads me to think that you are exactly the kind of person who could do with a privilege audit.

vezzy-fnord 13y ago
Caring about people's racial characteristics is racist. Not caring about people's racial characteristics is "colorblindness" and also racist. That really is a catch-22 scenario.
- tasty_freeze 13y ago
  You have funny definitions. As far as a hiring manager goes, sure, he should care about the persons ability. But this wasn't an interview -- he was commenting on an article about someone living in the real world. In the US, there are still significant racial and gender issues. Ignoring them because you are "color blind" is not a commendable trait. It isn't racist; it is ignoring racism.

jamesbritt 13y ago

For those curious about "no one knows you're a dog" it's from a Peter Steiner cartoon that ran 20 years ago: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/comic-riffs/post/nobody-knows-youre-a-dog-as-iconic-internet-cartoon-turns-20-creator-peter-steiner-knows-the-joke-rings-as-relevant-as-ever/2013/07/31/73372600-f98d-11e2-8e84-c56731a202fb_blog.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/comic-riffs/post/nobody-...