4 ms·

I'll try to explain my point of view. Without resorting to sarcasm. My experience is with kudzu, magically finding new networkcards all of a sudden. Or udev, w

I'll try to explain my point of view. Without resorting to sarcasm. My experience is with kudzu, magically finding new networkcards all of a sudden. Or udev, which then automagically turns these new found cards into eth12, instead of eth0. Too often I have 'smart' systems trying to figure out what should be done, and fail miserably. Especially when trying to debug a software-problem, in an enterprise production landscape. No, I do NOT want systemd to 'figure out for me' that I need network when I start sshd. Because sometimes I don't NEED a running network. When debugging a broken server, I don't want to have to first dive into the configurations of systemd trying to figure out all the dependencies, and stopping systemd from starting, or stopping them.

__david__ 13y ago
You can force it if you want to, but in normal operations, starting sshd without waiting for the network to appear is just flat out wrong. It will not work. So once in a blue moon you want to run systemctl with "--ignore-dependencies"? That's a much different argument than "would prefer to do my own thinking, not have the computer try to outsmart me." You're right, it's not smarter than you—but it does has a better memory than you. To want things dumb for the 1% case seems stupid to me and an untenable position to take, hence my initial sarcasm.
- mverwijs 13y ago
  > You can force it if you want to, but in normal operations, starting sshd without waiting for the network to appear is just flat out wrong. It will not work. There is no such thing as flat out wrong. Troubleshooting other peoples servers I need to work around many different situations. A '--ignore-dependencies" is nice, but won't cut it as it depends greatly on the situation at hand. Perhaps sshd also has a dependency not just on networking but also on slapd or something. Perhaps I do not want networking, but I do want slapd to be running. systemd having a better memory than me is, well, true. It doesn't solve my problems for me though. The Windows Registry also has a better memory than me, but I prefer my configs in a textfile I can parse, grep and maintain with any tool I choose. Same with systemd: better memory than me, but I do not really need a better memory than me. My memory is good enough. But meanwhile the world has made up it's mind and in all likelyhood Debian will be using systemd. So I might as well start the learning curve and be done with it.

__david__ 13y ago

You can force it if you want to, but in normal operations, starting sshd without waiting for the network to appear is just flat out wrong. It will not work. So once in a blue moon you want to run systemctl with "--ignore-dependencies"? That's a much different argument than "would prefer to do my own thinking, not have the computer try to outsmart me." You're right, it's not smarter than you—but it does has a better memory than you. To want things dumb for the 1% case seems stupid to me and an untenable position to take, hence my initial sarcasm.

mverwijs 13y ago
> You can force it if you want to, but in normal operations, starting sshd without waiting for the network to appear is just flat out wrong. It will not work. There is no such thing as flat out wrong. Troubleshooting other peoples servers I need to work around many different situations. A '--ignore-dependencies" is nice, but won't cut it as it depends greatly on the situation at hand. Perhaps sshd also has a dependency not just on networking but also on slapd or something. Perhaps I do not want networking, but I do want slapd to be running. systemd having a better memory than me is, well, true. It doesn't solve my problems for me though. The Windows Registry also has a better memory than me, but I prefer my configs in a textfile I can parse, grep and maintain with any tool I choose. Same with systemd: better memory than me, but I do not really need a better memory than me. My memory is good enough. But meanwhile the world has made up it's mind and in all likelyhood Debian will be using systemd. So I might as well start the learning curve and be done with it.