4 ms·

I would prefer to do my own thinking, not have the computer try to outsmart me. It can't, and it always hurts my sleepcycles when it tries.

Groxx 13y ago
Not sure how this applies. I assume you automate some things that you could simply type in by hand every single time, why not this?
- mverwijs 13y ago
  Because it murks things up. Same as network-manager pointing /etc/resolv.conf to 127.0.01, and then run it's own resolving dnsmasq on that address. It's trying to be too smart in resolving a problem. And now, when I cannot resolve a hostname, can't even edit /etc/resolv.conf, or trust it's contents. I now have to look into /etc/dnsmasq.conf, interpret it, find out where it stores the real resolv.conf file and have a look in that file. It's overcomplicating things. Yes, I love automation. I puppetize and ansible-ize the hell out of my serverparks. But udev, kudzu, network-manager and now systemd: they're solving the problem by creating more complex problems. I just have very bad experiences with automagic systems trying to outsmart me. And failing miserably, costing me a saturday-evening with the missus. And outsmarting me ain't even that hard!
bkor 13y ago
My smart phone automatically silences from the Bluetooth speakers when I plug in my headphones. When I'm listening to my headphones and remove them, the music automatically pauzes. It thinks for me, and I think it is great! I can also gives loads of similar examples for just a computer, but above behaviour is something I really appreciate every day.
forgottenpass 13y ago
You already have an init system that does some level of "thinking" for you. You had to learn how that one works, you just don't want to learn a new one.
- mverwijs 13y ago
  > You had to learn how that one works, > you just don't want to learn a new one. That conclusion was quickly drawn. :)
__david__ 13y ago
I know! I still can't stand that my computer just boots when I turn it on. I liked it when I had to input my boot code in binary with the switches on the front. Also, I refuse to use "make" because I prefer typing long and complicated gcc lines and working out all the header file dependencies in my head. Why on earth would I trust my computer to do that for me?
- mverwijs 13y ago
  I'll try to explain my point of view. Without resorting to sarcasm. My experience is with kudzu, magically finding new networkcards all of a sudden. Or udev, which then automagically turns these new found cards into eth12, instead of eth0. Too often I have 'smart' systems trying to figure out what should be done, and fail miserably. Especially when trying to debug a software-problem, in an enterprise production landscape. No, I do NOT want systemd to 'figure out for me' that I need network when I start sshd. Because sometimes I don't NEED a running network. When debugging a broken server, I don't want to have to first dive into the configurations of systemd trying to figure out all the dependencies, and stopping systemd from starting, or stopping them.
  - __david__ 13y ago
    You can force it if you want to, but in normal operations, starting sshd without waiting for the network to appear is just flat out wrong. It will not work. So once in a blue moon you want to run systemctl with "--ignore-dependencies"? That's a much different argument than "would prefer to do my own thinking, not have the computer try to outsmart me." You're right, it's not smarter than you—but it does has a better memory than you. To want things dumb for the 1% case seems stupid to me and an untenable position to take, hence my initial sarcasm.
    - mverwijs 13y ago
      > You can force it if you want to, but in normal operations, starting sshd without waiting for the network to appear is just flat out wrong. It will not work. There is no such thing as flat out wrong. Troubleshooting other peoples servers I need to work around many different situations. A '--ignore-dependencies" is nice, but won't cut it as it depends greatly on the situation at hand. Perhaps sshd also has a dependency not just on networking but also on slapd or something. Perhaps I do not want networking, but I do want slapd to be running. systemd having a better memory than me is, well, true. It doesn't solve my problems for me though. The Windows Registry also has a better memory than me, but I prefer my configs in a textfile I can parse, grep and maintain with any tool I choose. Same with systemd: better memory than me, but I do not really need a better memory than me. My memory is good enough. But meanwhile the world has made up it's mind and in all likelyhood Debian will be using systemd. So I might as well start the learning curve and be done with it.

Groxx 13y ago

Not sure how this applies. I assume you automate some things that you could simply type in by hand every single time, why not this?

mverwijs 13y ago
Because it murks things up. Same as network-manager pointing /etc/resolv.conf to 127.0.01, and then run it's own resolving dnsmasq on that address. It's trying to be too smart in resolving a problem. And now, when I cannot resolve a hostname, can't even edit /etc/resolv.conf, or trust it's contents. I now have to look into /etc/dnsmasq.conf, interpret it, find out where it stores the real resolv.conf file and have a look in that file. It's overcomplicating things. Yes, I love automation. I puppetize and ansible-ize the hell out of my serverparks. But udev, kudzu, network-manager and now systemd: they're solving the problem by creating more complex problems. I just have very bad experiences with automagic systems trying to outsmart me. And failing miserably, costing me a saturday-evening with the missus. And outsmarting me ain't even that hard!

bkor 13y ago

My smart phone automatically silences from the Bluetooth speakers when I plug in my headphones. When I'm listening to my headphones and remove them, the music automatically pauzes. It thinks for me, and I think it is great! I can also gives loads of similar examples for just a computer, but above behaviour is something I really appreciate every day.

forgottenpass 13y ago

You already have an init system that does some level of "thinking" for you. You had to learn how that one works, you just don't want to learn a new one.

mverwijs 13y ago
> You had to learn how that one works, > you just don't want to learn a new one. That conclusion was quickly drawn. :)

__david__ 13y ago

I know! I still can't stand that my computer just boots when I turn it on. I liked it when I had to input my boot code in binary with the switches on the front. Also, I refuse to use "make" because I prefer typing long and complicated gcc lines and working out all the header file dependencies in my head. Why on earth would I trust my computer to do that for me?

mverwijs 13y ago
I'll try to explain my point of view. Without resorting to sarcasm. My experience is with kudzu, magically finding new networkcards all of a sudden. Or udev, which then automagically turns these new found cards into eth12, instead of eth0. Too often I have 'smart' systems trying to figure out what should be done, and fail miserably. Especially when trying to debug a software-problem, in an enterprise production landscape. No, I do NOT want systemd to 'figure out for me' that I need network when I start sshd. Because sometimes I don't NEED a running network. When debugging a broken server, I don't want to have to first dive into the configurations of systemd trying to figure out all the dependencies, and stopping systemd from starting, or stopping them.
- __david__ 13y ago
  You can force it if you want to, but in normal operations, starting sshd without waiting for the network to appear is just flat out wrong. It will not work. So once in a blue moon you want to run systemctl with "--ignore-dependencies"? That's a much different argument than "would prefer to do my own thinking, not have the computer try to outsmart me." You're right, it's not smarter than you—but it does has a better memory than you. To want things dumb for the 1% case seems stupid to me and an untenable position to take, hence my initial sarcasm.
  - mverwijs 13y ago
    > You can force it if you want to, but in normal operations, starting sshd without waiting for the network to appear is just flat out wrong. It will not work. There is no such thing as flat out wrong. Troubleshooting other peoples servers I need to work around many different situations. A '--ignore-dependencies" is nice, but won't cut it as it depends greatly on the situation at hand. Perhaps sshd also has a dependency not just on networking but also on slapd or something. Perhaps I do not want networking, but I do want slapd to be running. systemd having a better memory than me is, well, true. It doesn't solve my problems for me though. The Windows Registry also has a better memory than me, but I prefer my configs in a textfile I can parse, grep and maintain with any tool I choose. Same with systemd: better memory than me, but I do not really need a better memory than me. My memory is good enough. But meanwhile the world has made up it's mind and in all likelyhood Debian will be using systemd. So I might as well start the learning curve and be done with it.