7 ms·

There is nothing about programming computers that is gender specific; in fact it seems kind of weird and awkward that we have to discuss this at all. Given tha

by olefoo 13y ago

There is nothing about programming computers that is gender specific; in fact it seems kind of weird and awkward that we have to discuss this at all. Given that so many of the foundational figures of the field ( Ada Lovelace, Grace Hopper, etc. ) were female, the fact that programming and IT became an almost entirely male-dominated profession is suspicious, and should make us question the attitudes and social constructs that brought this about.

smtddr 13y ago
Nothing about the 1s & 0s themselves, but most of the environments & presentations where it happens? Those tend to lean stereotypical-male-centered[1][2]. 1. http://www.motherjones.com/media/2012/04/silicon-valley-brogrammer-culture-sexist-sxsw http://www.motherjones.com/media/2012/04/silicon-valley-brog... 2. http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/the-idiocy-of-techcrunch-disrupts-titshare-app http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/the-idiocy-of-techcrunch-di...
ps4fanboy 13y ago
I think for a long time programming has been presented as very hostile to work life balance, I had read about examples in high school like horror stories of crunch time. I think this does a lot to discourage women and men. My brother in law is doing programming at the same University that I did and the class sizes are 1/5th what they were when I was there.
- tomp 13y ago
  Really? I would imagine it's exactly the opposite - it's one of the rare professions that can earn you a livable salary without working overtime/two jobs. Though, maybe if one extrapolates about the entire profession from the few famous startups (and movies about them), you're quite correct.
  - ps4fanboy 13y ago
    I am not talking about reality but outsiders perceptions of what the industry is like.
kamaal 13y ago
Its not about programming. Or anything to do with the profession. Its has much to do with the culture. In my first project near impossible work conditions and deadlines were placed on us. Most of us had to make extreme sacrifices(health wise, socially and in many aspects)- The other option was being out of the job. The problem is you need a supporting family. Here in India, its difficult for women at least socially and even in your own family to justify working whole nights, weekends and late hours consistently. You can try to fight that when you are single, it gets near impossible to do that after marriage and kids. Plus women have to take breaks in their 20's and 30's for maternity reasons. At the other end, super success in software depends on all this start up culture which is very hard on most women.
- pjmlp 13y ago
  I would say it depends a lot on the country as well. In many European countries those conditions would suffice for a class action against the employer.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - kamaal 13y ago
    >>those conditions would suffice for a class action against the employer. What good would that do? If you pass laws that make it difficult to start and sustain a competitive company, next time around you will see such companies would be starting up in some other country. Now the whole ecosystem suffers.
    - shaan7 13y ago
      you mean to run a "competitive company" you have to abuse your employees? I know a lot of companies that are the best in their business and never have to. It is just unfortunate for India that our so-called IT Industry is just marketing itself as cheap and easy-to-abuse labour.
      - 13y ago
detcader 13y ago
What's weird is that people assume that this has to do with programming specifically, instead of the larger workings of gender as a social construction and hierarchy (laid upon the material reality of sex dimorphism). Discussing gender isn't weird, men (and many women) just aren't very literate about the thing.
- animus9 13y ago
  Actually most men who program are just interested in it. Same with the ladies. Discussing gender is irrelevant to this forum. This new age jargon will have a short shelf life once the truth gets out. Those who sow seeds of discord will soon have to reap their crops.
  - detcader 13y ago
    There's a gender imbalance in the programming field. This, to many, is worthy of thought. If you think you really know what's relevant to be discussed on Hacker News, you should shoot pg an email volunteering to moderate, see how that goes
  - pyrocat 13y ago
    So how's your militant MRA cult going?
    - jacobtracey 13y ago
      What?
      - DanBC 13y ago
        Animus9 is an obvious mens rights advocate. They are indistinguishable from trolls; the only difference being that they believe the stuff they say.
        poorelise 13y ago
        So advocating mens right is equal to being a rightwing military cult person? Are you really of the opinion that men's rights are not important? Also, ad hominem...
animus9 13y ago
The only thing suspicious is the propaganda machine which is creating this never ending list of gender-tech articles and their associated divisionist jargon. Social construct theory is dead. Girls who have a genuine interest in technology couldn't care less about the sex of their coworkers (because if they did then they would be sexists).
- romanovcode 13y ago
  Posts like these get high views. I'd say it's more of a link-bait thing.
  - detcader 13y ago
    Did you read the article?
    - animus9 13y ago
      Did you read the truth?
  - animus9 13y ago
    I have watched the manipulation of online forums in real time by a specific group with a specific political agenda. Hacker News might very well be the next victim. It used to be about technology. What place does subversive gender politics and social construct theory have amongst hackers and lovers of technology?
- detcader 13y ago
  "Social construct theory is dead" Are you serious? When did it "die", again?
cclogg 13y ago
The other comments here are talking more about the work-life balance issues that might be causing the gender gap... but I personally just think it's to do with parents/relatives, role models, and the time between grade 1 and grade 12. I myself am a coder because I loved modding games when I was younger. I do like creating things regardless, but I got to that point because a childhood friend shared PC games with me (games that his uncle shared with him)... and then you end up spending a large chunk of your childhood on the computer, so it's natural to progress down that path. But I know both guys and girls that played games like me and chose not to do a career that is computer-related. It'd be great to have more gender balance in computer science, but actually in all fields too. I found in my art history classes in college that the class was around 80-90% female, for every class I took. This was basically the opposite of my computer science classes... Man though, it's tough to judge society in the present lol.
- boyaka 13y ago
  Because Art History is so incredibly important. Whatever could we possibly do without more people studying Art History?
chongli 13y ago
( Ada Lovelace, Grace Hopper, etc. ) I think the problem is that we always name these two. Ada Lovelace died 161 years ago. Is she really all that relevant a role model for girls today?
- detcader 13y ago
  Well, with the combined factors of WWII keeping the men busy, and the general conception around that time that "computing" was boring data-entry work -- and so, fit for women -- the fact that those handful of pioneering women (Hopper et al) were alive around early/mid 20th century isn't coincidence. The last real "wave" of women programmers has long been over..
  - poorelise 13y ago
    There are many famous female coders working atm, I think there is even a web site dedicated to them. The problem is when you require a "wave". Then people start getting really confused about statistics and correlation vs causation.
  - detcader 13y ago
    @poorelise - I admit that I'm ignorant of modern figures in programming who are women. What I meant with "wave" is that the famous women programmers that are often mentioned/taught about, cluster around a time period where we can identify a trend.
- JonnieCache 13y ago
  As soon as it became clear that software was an important and serious business, it immediately became male-dominated.
nthrow 13y ago
Before the dotcom era and the mainstreaming of geek chic, programming used to be considered pretty uncool. Men and women who went into it were seen as nerds. For women, more so than men, finding a mate has been seen as part of being able to survive comfortably. So women stayed away from the stigma of programming, lest it lessen their attractiveness. Now, after things reversed and geek chic became mainsteam, the profession's seen as cool. Other professions seen as less cool (trades for example) don't seem to be the targets of the diversity lobby.

by olefoo 13y ago

smtddr 13y ago

Nothing about the 1s & 0s themselves, but most of the environments & presentations where it happens? Those tend to lean stereotypical-male-centered[1][2]. 1. http://www.motherjones.com/media/2012/04/silicon-valley-brogrammer-culture-sexist-sxsw http://www.motherjones.com/media/2012/04/silicon-valley-brog... 2. http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/the-idiocy-of-techcrunch-disrupts-titshare-app http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/the-idiocy-of-techcrunch-di...

ps4fanboy 13y ago

I think for a long time programming has been presented as very hostile to work life balance, I had read about examples in high school like horror stories of crunch time. I think this does a lot to discourage women and men. My brother in law is doing programming at the same University that I did and the class sizes are 1/5th what they were when I was there.

tomp 13y ago
Really? I would imagine it's exactly the opposite - it's one of the rare professions that can earn you a livable salary without working overtime/two jobs. Though, maybe if one extrapolates about the entire profession from the few famous startups (and movies about them), you're quite correct.
- ps4fanboy 13y ago
  I am not talking about reality but outsiders perceptions of what the industry is like.

kamaal 13y ago

Its not about programming. Or anything to do with the profession. Its has much to do with the culture. In my first project near impossible work conditions and deadlines were placed on us. Most of us had to make extreme sacrifices(health wise, socially and in many aspects)- The other option was being out of the job. The problem is you need a supporting family. Here in India, its difficult for women at least socially and even in your own family to justify working whole nights, weekends and late hours consistently. You can try to fight that when you are single, it gets near impossible to do that after marriage and kids. Plus women have to take breaks in their 20's and 30's for maternity reasons. At the other end, super success in software depends on all this start up culture which is very hard on most women.

pjmlp 13y ago
I would say it depends a lot on the country as well. In many European countries those conditions would suffice for a class action against the employer.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- kamaal 13y ago
  >>those conditions would suffice for a class action against the employer. What good would that do? If you pass laws that make it difficult to start and sustain a competitive company, next time around you will see such companies would be starting up in some other country. Now the whole ecosystem suffers.
  - shaan7 13y ago
    you mean to run a "competitive company" you have to abuse your employees? I know a lot of companies that are the best in their business and never have to. It is just unfortunate for India that our so-called IT Industry is just marketing itself as cheap and easy-to-abuse labour.
    - 13y ago

detcader 13y ago

What's weird is that people assume that this has to do with programming specifically, instead of the larger workings of gender as a social construction and hierarchy (laid upon the material reality of sex dimorphism). Discussing gender isn't weird, men (and many women) just aren't very literate about the thing.

animus9 13y ago
Actually most men who program are just interested in it. Same with the ladies. Discussing gender is irrelevant to this forum. This new age jargon will have a short shelf life once the truth gets out. Those who sow seeds of discord will soon have to reap their crops.
- detcader 13y ago
  There's a gender imbalance in the programming field. This, to many, is worthy of thought. If you think you really know what's relevant to be discussed on Hacker News, you should shoot pg an email volunteering to moderate, see how that goes
- pyrocat 13y ago
  So how's your militant MRA cult going?
  - jacobtracey 13y ago
    What?
    - DanBC 13y ago
      Animus9 is an obvious mens rights advocate. They are indistinguishable from trolls; the only difference being that they believe the stuff they say.
      - poorelise 13y ago
        So advocating mens right is equal to being a rightwing military cult person? Are you really of the opinion that men's rights are not important? Also, ad hominem...

animus9 13y ago

The only thing suspicious is the propaganda machine which is creating this never ending list of gender-tech articles and their associated divisionist jargon. Social construct theory is dead. Girls who have a genuine interest in technology couldn't care less about the sex of their coworkers (because if they did then they would be sexists).

romanovcode 13y ago
Posts like these get high views. I'd say it's more of a link-bait thing.
- detcader 13y ago
  Did you read the article?
  - animus9 13y ago
    Did you read the truth?
- animus9 13y ago
  I have watched the manipulation of online forums in real time by a specific group with a specific political agenda. Hacker News might very well be the next victim. It used to be about technology. What place does subversive gender politics and social construct theory have amongst hackers and lovers of technology?
detcader 13y ago
"Social construct theory is dead" Are you serious? When did it "die", again?

cclogg 13y ago

The other comments here are talking more about the work-life balance issues that might be causing the gender gap... but I personally just think it's to do with parents/relatives, role models, and the time between grade 1 and grade 12. I myself am a coder because I loved modding games when I was younger. I do like creating things regardless, but I got to that point because a childhood friend shared PC games with me (games that his uncle shared with him)... and then you end up spending a large chunk of your childhood on the computer, so it's natural to progress down that path. But I know both guys and girls that played games like me and chose not to do a career that is computer-related. It'd be great to have more gender balance in computer science, but actually in all fields too. I found in my art history classes in college that the class was around 80-90% female, for every class I took. This was basically the opposite of my computer science classes... Man though, it's tough to judge society in the present lol.

boyaka 13y ago
Because Art History is so incredibly important. Whatever could we possibly do without more people studying Art History?

chongli 13y ago

( Ada Lovelace, Grace Hopper, etc. ) I think the problem is that we always name these two. Ada Lovelace died 161 years ago. Is she really all that relevant a role model for girls today?

detcader 13y ago
Well, with the combined factors of WWII keeping the men busy, and the general conception around that time that "computing" was boring data-entry work -- and so, fit for women -- the fact that those handful of pioneering women (Hopper et al) were alive around early/mid 20th century isn't coincidence. The last real "wave" of women programmers has long been over..
- poorelise 13y ago
  There are many famous female coders working atm, I think there is even a web site dedicated to them. The problem is when you require a "wave". Then people start getting really confused about statistics and correlation vs causation.
- detcader 13y ago
  @poorelise - I admit that I'm ignorant of modern figures in programming who are women. What I meant with "wave" is that the famous women programmers that are often mentioned/taught about, cluster around a time period where we can identify a trend.
JonnieCache 13y ago
As soon as it became clear that software was an important and serious business, it immediately became male-dominated.

nthrow 13y ago

Before the dotcom era and the mainstreaming of geek chic, programming used to be considered pretty uncool. Men and women who went into it were seen as nerds. For women, more so than men, finding a mate has been seen as part of being able to survive comfortably. So women stayed away from the stigma of programming, lest it lessen their attractiveness. Now, after things reversed and geek chic became mainsteam, the profession's seen as cool. Other professions seen as less cool (trades for example) don't seem to be the targets of the diversity lobby.