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To the Girls of HackerNews: I am a Female Founder who Codes

114 points by sye19 13y ago

cupofjoakim 13y ago
We know that we've reached gender equality when both men and women have the same possibilities, but for that to happen, each individual has to realise that just because you're a man doesn't mean that you can't work with girly products and vice versa. Good article, I think you're right on target with the issue.
olefoo 13y ago
There is nothing about programming computers that is gender specific; in fact it seems kind of weird and awkward that we have to discuss this at all. Given that so many of the foundational figures of the field ( Ada Lovelace, Grace Hopper, etc. ) were female, the fact that programming and IT became an almost entirely male-dominated profession is suspicious, and should make us question the attitudes and social constructs that brought this about.
- smtddr 13y ago
  Nothing about the 1s & 0s themselves, but most of the environments & presentations where it happens? Those tend to lean stereotypical-male-centered[1][2]. 1. http://www.motherjones.com/media/2012/04/silicon-valley-brogrammer-culture-sexist-sxsw http://www.motherjones.com/media/2012/04/silicon-valley-brog... 2. http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/the-idiocy-of-techcrunch-disrupts-titshare-app http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/the-idiocy-of-techcrunch-di...
- ps4fanboy 13y ago
  I think for a long time programming has been presented as very hostile to work life balance, I had read about examples in high school like horror stories of crunch time. I think this does a lot to discourage women and men. My brother in law is doing programming at the same University that I did and the class sizes are 1/5th what they were when I was there.
  - tomp 13y ago
    Really? I would imagine it's exactly the opposite - it's one of the rare professions that can earn you a livable salary without working overtime/two jobs. Though, maybe if one extrapolates about the entire profession from the few famous startups (and movies about them), you're quite correct.
    - ps4fanboy 13y ago
      I am not talking about reality but outsiders perceptions of what the industry is like.
- kamaal 13y ago
  Its not about programming. Or anything to do with the profession. Its has much to do with the culture. In my first project near impossible work conditions and deadlines were placed on us. Most of us had to make extreme sacrifices(health wise, socially and in many aspects)- The other option was being out of the job. The problem is you need a supporting family. Here in India, its difficult for women at least socially and even in your own family to justify working whole nights, weekends and late hours consistently. You can try to fight that when you are single, it gets near impossible to do that after marriage and kids. Plus women have to take breaks in their 20's and 30's for maternity reasons. At the other end, super success in software depends on all this start up culture which is very hard on most women.
  - pjmlp 13y ago
    I would say it depends a lot on the country as well. In many European countries those conditions would suffice for a class action against the employer.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - kamaal 13y ago
      >>those conditions would suffice for a class action against the employer. What good would that do? If you pass laws that make it difficult to start and sustain a competitive company, next time around you will see such companies would be starting up in some other country. Now the whole ecosystem suffers.
      - shaan7 13y ago
        you mean to run a "competitive company" you have to abuse your employees? I know a lot of companies that are the best in their business and never have to. It is just unfortunate for India that our so-called IT Industry is just marketing itself as cheap and easy-to-abuse labour.
        13y ago
- detcader 13y ago
  What's weird is that people assume that this has to do with programming specifically, instead of the larger workings of gender as a social construction and hierarchy (laid upon the material reality of sex dimorphism). Discussing gender isn't weird, men (and many women) just aren't very literate about the thing.
  - animus9 13y ago
    Actually most men who program are just interested in it. Same with the ladies. Discussing gender is irrelevant to this forum. This new age jargon will have a short shelf life once the truth gets out. Those who sow seeds of discord will soon have to reap their crops.
    - detcader 13y ago
      There's a gender imbalance in the programming field. This, to many, is worthy of thought. If you think you really know what's relevant to be discussed on Hacker News, you should shoot pg an email volunteering to moderate, see how that goes
    - pyrocat 13y ago
      So how's your militant MRA cult going?
      - jacobtracey 13y ago
        What?
        DanBC 13y ago
        Animus9 is an obvious mens rights advocate. They are indistinguishable from trolls; the only difference being that they believe the stuff they say.
        poorelise 13y ago
        So advocating mens right is equal to being a rightwing military cult person? Are you really of the opinion that men's rights are not important? Also, ad hominem...
- animus9 13y ago
  The only thing suspicious is the propaganda machine which is creating this never ending list of gender-tech articles and their associated divisionist jargon. Social construct theory is dead. Girls who have a genuine interest in technology couldn't care less about the sex of their coworkers (because if they did then they would be sexists).
  - romanovcode 13y ago
    Posts like these get high views. I'd say it's more of a link-bait thing.
    - detcader 13y ago
      Did you read the article?
      - animus9 13y ago
        Did you read the truth?
    - animus9 13y ago
      I have watched the manipulation of online forums in real time by a specific group with a specific political agenda. Hacker News might very well be the next victim. It used to be about technology. What place does subversive gender politics and social construct theory have amongst hackers and lovers of technology?
  - detcader 13y ago
    "Social construct theory is dead" Are you serious? When did it "die", again?
- cclogg 13y ago
  The other comments here are talking more about the work-life balance issues that might be causing the gender gap... but I personally just think it's to do with parents/relatives, role models, and the time between grade 1 and grade 12. I myself am a coder because I loved modding games when I was younger. I do like creating things regardless, but I got to that point because a childhood friend shared PC games with me (games that his uncle shared with him)... and then you end up spending a large chunk of your childhood on the computer, so it's natural to progress down that path. But I know both guys and girls that played games like me and chose not to do a career that is computer-related. It'd be great to have more gender balance in computer science, but actually in all fields too. I found in my art history classes in college that the class was around 80-90% female, for every class I took. This was basically the opposite of my computer science classes... Man though, it's tough to judge society in the present lol.
  - boyaka 13y ago
    Because Art History is so incredibly important. Whatever could we possibly do without more people studying Art History?
- chongli 13y ago
  ( Ada Lovelace, Grace Hopper, etc. ) I think the problem is that we always name these two. Ada Lovelace died 161 years ago. Is she really all that relevant a role model for girls today?
  - detcader 13y ago
    Well, with the combined factors of WWII keeping the men busy, and the general conception around that time that "computing" was boring data-entry work -- and so, fit for women -- the fact that those handful of pioneering women (Hopper et al) were alive around early/mid 20th century isn't coincidence. The last real "wave" of women programmers has long been over..
    - poorelise 13y ago
      There are many famous female coders working atm, I think there is even a web site dedicated to them. The problem is when you require a "wave". Then people start getting really confused about statistics and correlation vs causation.
    - detcader 13y ago
      @poorelise - I admit that I'm ignorant of modern figures in programming who are women. What I meant with "wave" is that the famous women programmers that are often mentioned/taught about, cluster around a time period where we can identify a trend.
  - JonnieCache 13y ago
    As soon as it became clear that software was an important and serious business, it immediately became male-dominated.
- nthrow 13y ago
  Before the dotcom era and the mainstreaming of geek chic, programming used to be considered pretty uncool. Men and women who went into it were seen as nerds. For women, more so than men, finding a mate has been seen as part of being able to survive comfortably. So women stayed away from the stigma of programming, lest it lessen their attractiveness. Now, after things reversed and geek chic became mainsteam, the profession's seen as cool. Other professions seen as less cool (trades for example) don't seem to be the targets of the diversity lobby.
tempodox 13y ago
I hope this article goes viral. I can't believe we're still not over these stupid preconceptions that intellect has anything to do with our reproductive organs. It shouldn't have anything to do with luck, but still: Best of luck to all you girls out there!
- simgidacav 13y ago
  Sent it to my girlfriend, who's a clever pythonista
- Cthulhu_ 13y ago
  Judging by some of my colleagues / the people I've worked with, intellect isn't a prerequisite for getting into the tech industry either :p.
  - tempodox 13y ago
    That's a different discussion entirely :-)
fjhqjv 13y ago
This seems like it should be addressed more towards non-technical founders who should learn to code, not specifically women. Otherwise, it's built on the assumption that most females on Hacker News don't already know how to code, which may or may not be the case.
notastartup 13y ago
To the Boys of HackerNews: I am a Male Founder who Codes but no one cares because there's too many of us and that makes us not at all interesting. Have women have ever been robbed of being able to code like voting? Why does it receive so much attention? What adversity did they need to overcome to be where they are? Is it physical like someone who suffers from carpal tunnel syndrome or glaucoma overcoming their disability? Is it mental like someone who suffers from dyslexia mastering programming? Or was it political like a North Korean who discovered coding while facing imminent persecution for the forbidden knowledge? I know women who can code just like men and they are great at it but their gender has nothing to do with it, it's just their ability and strengths as developers. Does a person's gender really merit so much of our attention when the basis for the argument is as superficial as a binary label society have placed on people, never mind the the other categories of people that fall in between and who are shunned.
- smtddr 13y ago
  You sound like you don't believe there is any significant gender bias or sexism in the tech field. Is that what you think?
  - ekianjo 13y ago
    And you think it's by putting every message under the "I am a woman, look, I can code too!" will actually change whatever gender bias there may be in a positive way ? On the contrary, I think it goes in the wrong way, by highlighting the wrong differences instead of the common points no matter the genders.
    - mercurial 13y ago
      Why not? This is an industry with precious few role models outside of heterosexual white males. Highlighting the fact that it is, indeed, possible to succeed in this field without being a member of this category is good, and encourages more diversity. It may even, you know, be a motivating factor for some.
  - greenyoda 13y ago
primitivesuave 13y ago
I run a private education organization that teaches kids how to code at a physical facility, and we get a gender breakup of male and female students that is similar to that of the industry (around 80 - 20). Because of the overwhelming male presence, it is difficult to make a comfortable learning environment for the female students, who may often feel uncomfortable, at odds with, or ostracized by pseudo-masculine efforts undertaken by adolescent males. It's at this level that computer education becomes challenging for females, at that awkward stage where not all the boys have yet learned how to shower daily. Our solution was to simply make a small set of our classes for girls only. This provides girls with the option of learning either in an all-girls or a regular environment, so girls who feel uncomfortable are not discouraged to the point that they drop out.
- notastartup 13y ago
  This is extremely sexist and needlessly hostile. It's like being male and interested in coding is somehow associated with all the stereotypical male attributes which turns off women from coding. Ah, so we need to have boys acting less like boys because it's clearly why we don't have more women in tech. So we all need to teach teen boys to become meterosexual so it can be more inviting and suitable for females? I think if you want more women to be coding, you have failed definitely. Why not show that women can be as strong as the boys, can rub shoulders and brain and still come out on top? By segregating based on gender, you only support that women have stereotypical attributes which prevent them from being as good as men, and men are good because of their stereotypical attributes. Your genitals do not make you a coder, it's really down to the culture and societal expectations of both genders.
  - wetmore 13y ago
    Yes explain to me how keeping things the way they are will fix the situation.
    - flebron 13y ago
      I will do that as soon as you explain how treating female coders as if they were freaks, segregating them in their own class, decreases the problem of integration of more female coders in tech. Perhaps the issue of "feeling alien to the community" would be improved by, you know, not alienating females from the community, with sexist behavior such as this.
shurcooL 13y ago
I would love to see more girls creating cool stuff using golang; that'd be so cool. I haven't seen any so far.
smtddr 13y ago
To the author of this blog and all ladies reading this: I'm sorry, but just like stories around racial diversity in tech you're about to see a bunch of HN comments making _EVERY EXCUSE CONCEIVABLE_, and then some, to dismiss your concerns and/or say this blog is doing damage instead of helping. I think they're all wrong, but I can't argue against all of them. All I can do is upvote your supporters and downvote the detractors. Please just keep on keeping on. I have a daughter here who will benefit from the path you're creating. You won't see it in the comments of HackerNews, but there are men in tech who can actually see the glass walls & ceilings women run into in this field starting back to at least high-school and won't deny it with pedantic arguments that go nowhere & prove/disprove nothing. That is all.
- shangxiao 13y ago
  Your condescending attitude just makes you sound like a tool, not a hero
  - detcader 13y ago
    OP was the one calling out condescending people, actually
    - theorique 13y ago
      In a condescending manner though.
- hueving 13y ago
  Way to throw out the righteous indignation before anything actually happened. That doesn't add to the conversation at all and, if anything, just invites problems.
  - DanBC 13y ago
    It did have a horrible tone but we know it's true. There are some deeply unpleasant people on HN who are happy to spew some really vile opinions.
caiob 13y ago
Since when did this become an issue? Tired of hearing that company X or company Y should hire more females. We have way more serious problems to solve, really.
- detcader 13y ago
  "Tired of hearing that company X or company Y should hire more females." When did the writer of this article say this? When has anybody said this? Please, I'm very interested.
- vacri 13y ago
  We have way more serious problems to solve, really. I wasn't aware that we had to attack the list strictly in order.
eXpl0it3r 13y ago
It would be really nice to see more females in the industry, but I rally have to ask myself if those artificial promotions will help much. I never learned to program because of some courses or because the industry needed me, I started programming because I wanted to create things. There was just a natural interest in computers and how they work, that's what drove and often still drives me today. If females have the same passion and/or will to create things, then I don't see what is stopping them from doing so. Sure it might be intimidating to work in a rather male-dominated profession, but personally I have enough of all the generalization that is happening. Not every company/community is unable to respect anyone just because of their gender. Then again maybe it's quite a bit different here in Europe.
- detcader 13y ago
  How do you make the determination that the interest is necessarily "natural" when children's minds are so pliable growing up? It's a proven fact that boys and girls are treated differently by their parents and the media, and surely their older peers...
  - eXpl0it3r 13y ago
    As I said in the other replay above, the "natural" interest isn't just from growing up, but it's also the unforced way of being interested in the topic or simply getting hooked on the idea of programming. Sure you can learn to program as you can learn to play a game or learn how to knit, but why do we have to artificially get women into the industry just to get number imbalance up? I guess the situation is simply different than here in Switzerland, because here we do all kinds of stuff to get more women into the industry but the numbers haven't really changed, so is it still "our" fault? Can't we just accept that women might not be so interested in computer science as much as most men are not interested in female-dominated professions. I won't stop anyone promoting computer science, regardless whether it's for women or men, I'm just fed up with all the generalizations and prejudice regarding "the industry" and the fact that people simply don't want to accept that there are generally differences in interest between genders.
    - 13y ago
kateho 13y ago
Well, that's cool. While I totally get the point of what the OP was trying to do (and it's awesome trying to be make female coders/founders more visible), I have to confess that as a fellow 'girl of HackerNews', I think the title could be less leading and a bit more constructive. There are other female founders out there that code. I'm sorry to say that you're not the first, nor the last. It's about how we get MORE female founders and female coders to increase the diversity of the startup world. (Incidentally, I'm female, a startup founder and I code. )
alan_cx 13y ago
Tongue in cheek, but I think there might be a point here struggling to see the light of day... Why? I mean, why would women want to get into coding? If one is not already working with computers, from the outside world, its a crappy job, and the money isn't better than many other things. Not to mention the insane hours culture. Women have a clean sheet choice. Why work in an office, killing your brain on hugely complex things for not much extra money, sat in front of what is essentially a complex toy? Has it ever occurred to people that perhaps girls take an objective choice based on purely the work and reward (money or psychological) and make a wise choice to do something else? Also, coders are seen widely was geeky, spotty, awkward, weirdos, who cant get laid. And, um, they are often banging on about getting more women in the workplace. From a girls POV, that's sounding a bit iffy at best. My attitude is to just let women do what they want to do, and if I get a CV from one, well, I dont want to know if its a woman or not. I just want the skills. I dont care if its a man, woman, or what ever. Just don't get in anyones way and let nature take its course. But personally, I cant help thinking women are making a smart choice, and going for better way to spend life earning a crust. I mean, really, look at what we do. Its a terrible way to be. And we know this is true because even the big tech companies go out of their way trying to make offices and environments fun and exciting. And that is for men. Heh, even men hate it, and need a bouincy toy to distract them!!! I don't see many of other companies going this far. Why? Because the job is awful. So, men, stop trying to shit up womens lives by making them feel bad for not wanting to work down the mine.... sorry, code. XXXXX love you all, obviously ;)
- detcader 13y ago
  I dunno, programming can be as fun as any other art, and the money is good and secure. And I don't see how this analysis incorporates gender at all -- unless you're saying women are better at decision-making than men, heh
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
  - tomp 13y ago
    > Don't become entrepreneurs. All the money, fame, and the joy of owning your own company is just ~terrible~. I think that a generally good advice, not just for "the Ladies" you refer to. Most businesses fail, many entrepreneurs burn out, and attributing money and fame to startup owners is caused by the survivorship bias.
eripaha 13y ago
Being a woman does not give person any extra value. Show us something interesting or go back in the kitchen.
- detcader 13y ago
  You seem pleasant..
scdoshi 13y ago
"Assigning a label to myself like “hacker” or “developer” gives me the heebie-jeebies." This in particular is not limited to women. As a guy from a non-CS background, I felt the same way for a long time. I'd say it's a function of experience rather than gender.
- Cthulhu_ 13y ago
  Any kind of label is imho somehting to be avoided. Hacker / developer / programmer, but also things like nerd/geek for that matter. Few of my colleagues here would be put into the latter categories if you met them on the street.
altero 13y ago
Hallelujah!
poorelise 13y ago
"It’s not because I can’t speak as well or I don’t know the material — it’s because he fits the mold so much better." Did you ever test that assumption?
dzink 13y ago
Kudos to Susie for putting herself out there to make a point! For everyone else debating this issue: to look at the problem objectively, we have to break down the different clusters of people that need encouragement and support to get into tech/startups in order to see how we measure and fix each cluster: 1. American children of any affiliation (race, sex, gender, location) need to learn how to code, because it is the literacy of the future - without it you are left behind in both earnings potential and career choices. To make that happen everyone here can take a step to show a child something cool they can do with code. Get them fired up about expressing their creativity with the tools of tech! For every one child that reminds you of you when you were young, pick three that don't, to make things even in the long run. 2. Niche groups, previously underrepresented in tech need better representation, because diverse perspectives raise the permutation of potential problems noticed, problems tackled and solutions possible, period. Representation also leads to better mentorship, resources, and an even start for everyone with talent and grit, regardless of background. Once we get a unicorn IPO from each underrepresented group, things will change. If we aren't getting those, something is wrong with 1) or 3) or both. 3. Existing representatives of underrepresented groups in tech who have the experience and skills to lead and build successful businesses today need to be able to receive the same support and the same proportion of support as regularly represented groups. Nothing more, nothing less. We have yet to see data from anyone about percentage of seed* funded startups out of 1000 applicants from their representative group. That data can easily close this conversation for good or surface a problem that can be addressed next if need be. If there is a real problem here however, teaching children how to code won't be the way we need to solve it. This is the only data we have seen and it is not encouraging: http://www.bostonglobe.com/magazine/2013/11/02/how-female-entrepreneurs-can-get-venture-capital-game/Ahn0XfhG3WABm8Q4uoAq6O/story.html?event=event12 http://www.bostonglobe.com/magazine/2013/11/02/how-female-en... . How would you detect or solve for a problem in this cluster? * mentioning seed, since that sample would be most likely to be sufficient to gauge trust in underrepresented groups by investors. Later rounds could skew for industry trends in the short run. The goal is to run a regression that shows objective information.
- Cthulhu_ 13y ago
  I dunno about 1; in a similar line, you'd have to teach them electronics, farming, carpentry, household, and how to get unemployment benefits. But I'm in favor of teaching kids all of the above though.
knackernews 13y ago
ITT: men arguing with men who say "If I were a woman"
yeukhon 13y ago
Here is my abridged comment: 1. It is important to like who you are and what you do. I am glad you are proud of being who you are, 2. But at the same time I don't like when people are calling out initiatives like "more women in tech". Look, getting a job is tough. It can be luck or qualification. I know someone is going to cite some research studies but at this point, let's just say yes we get it, a lot of assholes out there are discriminating women. But in reality, you can't stop them by hiring more women. You wish you could just get more women in manager level so that more women can be hired. That's not going to happen magically and hoping women managers hire more women is also acting discrimination. I am not comfortable with that kind of initiatives. It is as if I was a broker setting a goal for myself. That's just number game, there is nothing we gain from it other than growing the numbers. 3. All-girls class is just bad. For one it's like containing them, like putting them in a zoo and wait for them to do something amazing and then we pay a visit and cheer them for their accomplishment. Events meant for helping girls to find self-esteem is great but then again, too many is going to do damage because they soon will get attached to these "all-girls" environment. To actually work in the real world, one must accept the flaws and be ready to work with unfriendly people. What is even more frustrating is that we are dogfooding people with the crazy things CS and programming are doing. The ability to code is great, awesome. But coding is just a tool. Like every other tool out there, you can either make something awesome and powerful or something ugly and useless. Knowing how to code doesn't make you smarter or special. It's like knowing quantum physics suddenly makes you a wantable guy among your girlfriends? That's just bullshit (for some it's true but then that's just bullshit). And that's pretty much stereotyping. What we need is to stop telling girls or any group of people to do XYZ because they are the minority or is having disadvantage. Making exceptions to them isn't going to help them. I am Asian (Chinese to be exact) and if 20 years later Asian MD dominates like 80%, do we start another initiative to bring up other ethnicity? If all the ice cream truck drivers are Asians, do we want more diversity? If we think (or because studies have shown...) that girls don't end up in tech because they are afraid or because they were told they weren't good enough, having all-girl class won't solve the problem when they enter the real world either. Teach people about computer and web literacy, about science and engineering, about what people do in their daily jobs. Teach regardless of gender or race. We all deserve to know them and we don't need to have special non-profit organizations going after XYZ groups of people. Bring those things into core education.
Cthulhu_ 13y ago
Probably offtopic and inane, but, using the term 'girl' implies children/teenagers or other immature women; can people just use 'women' instead? Will help with getting taken serious and such.
jaimebuelta 13y ago
It's just me or describing in the tech world things that are rare but clearly do exist like 'unicorns' seems a little weird? (I know is quite common way of talk, but still...)
kolev 13y ago
Not every brain is wired well for programming (can we please stop calling it "coding") - male or female, but there's some advantage men get due to being generally better at abstract thinking. Some believe this is due to cultural differences (http://phys.org/news/2011-08-disputes-notion-men-spatial-women.html http://phys.org/news/2011-08-disputes-notion-men-spatial-wom...), but I personally believe it's all due to hormonal differences. For example, estrogen affects cognitive function, testosterone definitely boosts competitiveness, and so on. I know some will rush to downvote me as a sexist, but this will be far from the truth. On the contrary - this is a good defense on the discrepancies in the statistics and suggests this to be a software rather a hardware problem. I personally don't need third-party statistics - I have nearly 30 years of programming experience and less than 10% of my colleagues have been female and this ratio hasn't improved over time.
melindajb 13y ago
What girls of hackernews? that's my question. 224 comments as of writing this, and most of them ignorant straw man whiny responses by (surprise!) men. Hard to imagine why some women wouldn't enjoy coming here and discussing things with so many enlightened, educated folks. If you're threatened by the thought of more women in coding, then you don't really believe that we're a meritocracy. If you're one of those folks, then somewhere, deep in your heart, you know that things aren't fair, and when kick ass women programmers come in, you as a mediocre participant, will be pushed down to the bottom. Meritocracy wants the very best. Seeks out the very best. Welcomes the very best. To use an analogy, I can't imagine Olympic athletes being happy for the best competitors from another country being sidelined due to their sexual preference. No, that's not happening. because world class athletes know their victories are hollow unless they're truly competing against the very best in the world. Unlike Silicon Valley. We don't want competition. Nope, we want our nice, cozy little in crowd, keep that money nice and close so we can control it. As Chris Rock said, there's a difference between rich and wealthy. Michael Jordan is rich, the owner of the chicago bulls is wealthy. Women want to be wealthy, not just rich. African Americans want to be wealthy, not just rich. And right now, according to PG himself, the path to that wealth is by learning to code. So anyone trying to stop that from happening, can pretty much categorically be described as a bigot.
- xrctl 13y ago
  No. No one is threatened by women, just perhaps annoyed by their endless complaining. > To use an analogy, I can't imagine Olympic athletes being happy for the best competitors from another country being sidelined due to their sexual preference. No, that's not happening. because world class athletes know their victories are hollow unless they're truly competing against the very best in the world. But you can probably see how male Olympians would be annoyed if they had to put up with 24/7 accusations that their superior performance in comparison to female Olympians was only because how much they hated them.
  - melindajb 13y ago
    You've completely miscategorized the nature of legitimate criticism. But why let facts stand in the way of a good argument?
tomc1985 13y ago
A lot of engineers I've known, tend to speak in plain, objective, sometimes even offensive terms. Most of the women I've met seem to react negatively to this style of communication. Further, social groups often try to be exclusive to those like them; I see this even at the company I work at. Different = bad Then there's the whispered complaining, from the fellas in the room, that they have to censor themselves when a woman is present. Engineering culture has a lot of growing to do before it can be seen as a welcoming group, whether to women or any other descriptor of people

114 points by sye19 13y ago

We know that we've reached gender equality when both men and women have the same possibilities, but for that to happen, each individual has to realise that just because you're a man doesn't mean that you can't work with girly products and vice versa. Good article, I think you're right on target with the issue.

olefoo 13y ago

There is nothing about programming computers that is gender specific; in fact it seems kind of weird and awkward that we have to discuss this at all. Given that so many of the foundational figures of the field ( Ada Lovelace, Grace Hopper, etc. ) were female, the fact that programming and IT became an almost entirely male-dominated profession is suspicious, and should make us question the attitudes and social constructs that brought this about.

smtddr 13y ago
Nothing about the 1s & 0s themselves, but most of the environments & presentations where it happens? Those tend to lean stereotypical-male-centered[1][2]. 1. http://www.motherjones.com/media/2012/04/silicon-valley-brogrammer-culture-sexist-sxsw http://www.motherjones.com/media/2012/04/silicon-valley-brog... 2. http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/the-idiocy-of-techcrunch-disrupts-titshare-app http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/the-idiocy-of-techcrunch-di...
ps4fanboy 13y ago
I think for a long time programming has been presented as very hostile to work life balance, I had read about examples in high school like horror stories of crunch time. I think this does a lot to discourage women and men. My brother in law is doing programming at the same University that I did and the class sizes are 1/5th what they were when I was there.
- tomp 13y ago
  Really? I would imagine it's exactly the opposite - it's one of the rare professions that can earn you a livable salary without working overtime/two jobs. Though, maybe if one extrapolates about the entire profession from the few famous startups (and movies about them), you're quite correct.
  - ps4fanboy 13y ago
    I am not talking about reality but outsiders perceptions of what the industry is like.
kamaal 13y ago
Its not about programming. Or anything to do with the profession. Its has much to do with the culture. In my first project near impossible work conditions and deadlines were placed on us. Most of us had to make extreme sacrifices(health wise, socially and in many aspects)- The other option was being out of the job. The problem is you need a supporting family. Here in India, its difficult for women at least socially and even in your own family to justify working whole nights, weekends and late hours consistently. You can try to fight that when you are single, it gets near impossible to do that after marriage and kids. Plus women have to take breaks in their 20's and 30's for maternity reasons. At the other end, super success in software depends on all this start up culture which is very hard on most women.
- pjmlp 13y ago
  I would say it depends a lot on the country as well. In many European countries those conditions would suffice for a class action against the employer.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - kamaal 13y ago
    >>those conditions would suffice for a class action against the employer. What good would that do? If you pass laws that make it difficult to start and sustain a competitive company, next time around you will see such companies would be starting up in some other country. Now the whole ecosystem suffers.
    - shaan7 13y ago
      you mean to run a "competitive company" you have to abuse your employees? I know a lot of companies that are the best in their business and never have to. It is just unfortunate for India that our so-called IT Industry is just marketing itself as cheap and easy-to-abuse labour.
      - 13y ago
detcader 13y ago
What's weird is that people assume that this has to do with programming specifically, instead of the larger workings of gender as a social construction and hierarchy (laid upon the material reality of sex dimorphism). Discussing gender isn't weird, men (and many women) just aren't very literate about the thing.
- animus9 13y ago
  Actually most men who program are just interested in it. Same with the ladies. Discussing gender is irrelevant to this forum. This new age jargon will have a short shelf life once the truth gets out. Those who sow seeds of discord will soon have to reap their crops.
  - detcader 13y ago
    There's a gender imbalance in the programming field. This, to many, is worthy of thought. If you think you really know what's relevant to be discussed on Hacker News, you should shoot pg an email volunteering to moderate, see how that goes
  - pyrocat 13y ago
    So how's your militant MRA cult going?
    - jacobtracey 13y ago
      What?
      - DanBC 13y ago
        Animus9 is an obvious mens rights advocate. They are indistinguishable from trolls; the only difference being that they believe the stuff they say.
        poorelise 13y ago
        So advocating mens right is equal to being a rightwing military cult person? Are you really of the opinion that men's rights are not important? Also, ad hominem...
animus9 13y ago
The only thing suspicious is the propaganda machine which is creating this never ending list of gender-tech articles and their associated divisionist jargon. Social construct theory is dead. Girls who have a genuine interest in technology couldn't care less about the sex of their coworkers (because if they did then they would be sexists).
- romanovcode 13y ago
  Posts like these get high views. I'd say it's more of a link-bait thing.
  - detcader 13y ago
    Did you read the article?
    - animus9 13y ago
      Did you read the truth?
  - animus9 13y ago
    I have watched the manipulation of online forums in real time by a specific group with a specific political agenda. Hacker News might very well be the next victim. It used to be about technology. What place does subversive gender politics and social construct theory have amongst hackers and lovers of technology?
- detcader 13y ago
  "Social construct theory is dead" Are you serious? When did it "die", again?
cclogg 13y ago
The other comments here are talking more about the work-life balance issues that might be causing the gender gap... but I personally just think it's to do with parents/relatives, role models, and the time between grade 1 and grade 12. I myself am a coder because I loved modding games when I was younger. I do like creating things regardless, but I got to that point because a childhood friend shared PC games with me (games that his uncle shared with him)... and then you end up spending a large chunk of your childhood on the computer, so it's natural to progress down that path. But I know both guys and girls that played games like me and chose not to do a career that is computer-related. It'd be great to have more gender balance in computer science, but actually in all fields too. I found in my art history classes in college that the class was around 80-90% female, for every class I took. This was basically the opposite of my computer science classes... Man though, it's tough to judge society in the present lol.
- boyaka 13y ago
  Because Art History is so incredibly important. Whatever could we possibly do without more people studying Art History?
chongli 13y ago
( Ada Lovelace, Grace Hopper, etc. ) I think the problem is that we always name these two. Ada Lovelace died 161 years ago. Is she really all that relevant a role model for girls today?
- detcader 13y ago
  Well, with the combined factors of WWII keeping the men busy, and the general conception around that time that "computing" was boring data-entry work -- and so, fit for women -- the fact that those handful of pioneering women (Hopper et al) were alive around early/mid 20th century isn't coincidence. The last real "wave" of women programmers has long been over..
  - poorelise 13y ago
    There are many famous female coders working atm, I think there is even a web site dedicated to them. The problem is when you require a "wave". Then people start getting really confused about statistics and correlation vs causation.
  - detcader 13y ago
    @poorelise - I admit that I'm ignorant of modern figures in programming who are women. What I meant with "wave" is that the famous women programmers that are often mentioned/taught about, cluster around a time period where we can identify a trend.
- JonnieCache 13y ago
  As soon as it became clear that software was an important and serious business, it immediately became male-dominated.
nthrow 13y ago
Before the dotcom era and the mainstreaming of geek chic, programming used to be considered pretty uncool. Men and women who went into it were seen as nerds. For women, more so than men, finding a mate has been seen as part of being able to survive comfortably. So women stayed away from the stigma of programming, lest it lessen their attractiveness. Now, after things reversed and geek chic became mainsteam, the profession's seen as cool. Other professions seen as less cool (trades for example) don't seem to be the targets of the diversity lobby.

tempodox 13y ago

I hope this article goes viral. I can't believe we're still not over these stupid preconceptions that intellect has anything to do with our reproductive organs. It shouldn't have anything to do with luck, but still: Best of luck to all you girls out there!

simgidacav 13y ago
Sent it to my girlfriend, who's a clever pythonista
Cthulhu_ 13y ago
Judging by some of my colleagues / the people I've worked with, intellect isn't a prerequisite for getting into the tech industry either :p.
- tempodox 13y ago
  That's a different discussion entirely :-)

fjhqjv 13y ago

This seems like it should be addressed more towards non-technical founders who should learn to code, not specifically women. Otherwise, it's built on the assumption that most females on Hacker News don't already know how to code, which may or may not be the case.

notastartup 13y ago

To the Boys of HackerNews: I am a Male Founder who Codes but no one cares because there's too many of us and that makes us not at all interesting. Have women have ever been robbed of being able to code like voting? Why does it receive so much attention? What adversity did they need to overcome to be where they are? Is it physical like someone who suffers from carpal tunnel syndrome or glaucoma overcoming their disability? Is it mental like someone who suffers from dyslexia mastering programming? Or was it political like a North Korean who discovered coding while facing imminent persecution for the forbidden knowledge? I know women who can code just like men and they are great at it but their gender has nothing to do with it, it's just their ability and strengths as developers. Does a person's gender really merit so much of our attention when the basis for the argument is as superficial as a binary label society have placed on people, never mind the the other categories of people that fall in between and who are shunned.

smtddr 13y ago
You sound like you don't believe there is any significant gender bias or sexism in the tech field. Is that what you think?
- ekianjo 13y ago
  And you think it's by putting every message under the "I am a woman, look, I can code too!" will actually change whatever gender bias there may be in a positive way ? On the contrary, I think it goes in the wrong way, by highlighting the wrong differences instead of the common points no matter the genders.
  - mercurial 13y ago
    Why not? This is an industry with precious few role models outside of heterosexual white males. Highlighting the fact that it is, indeed, possible to succeed in this field without being a member of this category is good, and encourages more diversity. It may even, you know, be a motivating factor for some.
- greenyoda 13y ago

primitivesuave 13y ago

I run a private education organization that teaches kids how to code at a physical facility, and we get a gender breakup of male and female students that is similar to that of the industry (around 80 - 20). Because of the overwhelming male presence, it is difficult to make a comfortable learning environment for the female students, who may often feel uncomfortable, at odds with, or ostracized by pseudo-masculine efforts undertaken by adolescent males. It's at this level that computer education becomes challenging for females, at that awkward stage where not all the boys have yet learned how to shower daily. Our solution was to simply make a small set of our classes for girls only. This provides girls with the option of learning either in an all-girls or a regular environment, so girls who feel uncomfortable are not discouraged to the point that they drop out.

notastartup 13y ago
This is extremely sexist and needlessly hostile. It's like being male and interested in coding is somehow associated with all the stereotypical male attributes which turns off women from coding. Ah, so we need to have boys acting less like boys because it's clearly why we don't have more women in tech. So we all need to teach teen boys to become meterosexual so it can be more inviting and suitable for females? I think if you want more women to be coding, you have failed definitely. Why not show that women can be as strong as the boys, can rub shoulders and brain and still come out on top? By segregating based on gender, you only support that women have stereotypical attributes which prevent them from being as good as men, and men are good because of their stereotypical attributes. Your genitals do not make you a coder, it's really down to the culture and societal expectations of both genders.
- wetmore 13y ago
  Yes explain to me how keeping things the way they are will fix the situation.
  - flebron 13y ago
    I will do that as soon as you explain how treating female coders as if they were freaks, segregating them in their own class, decreases the problem of integration of more female coders in tech. Perhaps the issue of "feeling alien to the community" would be improved by, you know, not alienating females from the community, with sexist behavior such as this.

shurcooL 13y ago

I would love to see more girls creating cool stuff using golang; that'd be so cool. I haven't seen any so far.

smtddr 13y ago

To the author of this blog and all ladies reading this: I'm sorry, but just like stories around racial diversity in tech you're about to see a bunch of HN comments making _EVERY EXCUSE CONCEIVABLE_, and then some, to dismiss your concerns and/or say this blog is doing damage instead of helping. I think they're all wrong, but I can't argue against all of them. All I can do is upvote your supporters and downvote the detractors. Please just keep on keeping on. I have a daughter here who will benefit from the path you're creating. You won't see it in the comments of HackerNews, but there are men in tech who can actually see the glass walls & ceilings women run into in this field starting back to at least high-school and won't deny it with pedantic arguments that go nowhere & prove/disprove nothing. That is all.

shangxiao 13y ago
Your condescending attitude just makes you sound like a tool, not a hero
- detcader 13y ago
  OP was the one calling out condescending people, actually
  - theorique 13y ago
    In a condescending manner though.
hueving 13y ago
Way to throw out the righteous indignation before anything actually happened. That doesn't add to the conversation at all and, if anything, just invites problems.
- DanBC 13y ago
  It did have a horrible tone but we know it's true. There are some deeply unpleasant people on HN who are happy to spew some really vile opinions.

caiob 13y ago

Since when did this become an issue? Tired of hearing that company X or company Y should hire more females. We have way more serious problems to solve, really.

detcader 13y ago
"Tired of hearing that company X or company Y should hire more females." When did the writer of this article say this? When has anybody said this? Please, I'm very interested.
vacri 13y ago
We have way more serious problems to solve, really. I wasn't aware that we had to attack the list strictly in order.

eXpl0it3r 13y ago

It would be really nice to see more females in the industry, but I rally have to ask myself if those artificial promotions will help much. I never learned to program because of some courses or because the industry needed me, I started programming because I wanted to create things. There was just a natural interest in computers and how they work, that's what drove and often still drives me today. If females have the same passion and/or will to create things, then I don't see what is stopping them from doing so. Sure it might be intimidating to work in a rather male-dominated profession, but personally I have enough of all the generalization that is happening. Not every company/community is unable to respect anyone just because of their gender. Then again maybe it's quite a bit different here in Europe.

detcader 13y ago
How do you make the determination that the interest is necessarily "natural" when children's minds are so pliable growing up? It's a proven fact that boys and girls are treated differently by their parents and the media, and surely their older peers...
- eXpl0it3r 13y ago
  As I said in the other replay above, the "natural" interest isn't just from growing up, but it's also the unforced way of being interested in the topic or simply getting hooked on the idea of programming. Sure you can learn to program as you can learn to play a game or learn how to knit, but why do we have to artificially get women into the industry just to get number imbalance up? I guess the situation is simply different than here in Switzerland, because here we do all kinds of stuff to get more women into the industry but the numbers haven't really changed, so is it still "our" fault? Can't we just accept that women might not be so interested in computer science as much as most men are not interested in female-dominated professions. I won't stop anyone promoting computer science, regardless whether it's for women or men, I'm just fed up with all the generalizations and prejudice regarding "the industry" and the fact that people simply don't want to accept that there are generally differences in interest between genders.
  - 13y ago

kateho 13y ago

Well, that's cool. While I totally get the point of what the OP was trying to do (and it's awesome trying to be make female coders/founders more visible), I have to confess that as a fellow 'girl of HackerNews', I think the title could be less leading and a bit more constructive. There are other female founders out there that code. I'm sorry to say that you're not the first, nor the last. It's about how we get MORE female founders and female coders to increase the diversity of the startup world. (Incidentally, I'm female, a startup founder and I code. )

alan_cx 13y ago

Tongue in cheek, but I think there might be a point here struggling to see the light of day... Why? I mean, why would women want to get into coding? If one is not already working with computers, from the outside world, its a crappy job, and the money isn't better than many other things. Not to mention the insane hours culture. Women have a clean sheet choice. Why work in an office, killing your brain on hugely complex things for not much extra money, sat in front of what is essentially a complex toy? Has it ever occurred to people that perhaps girls take an objective choice based on purely the work and reward (money or psychological) and make a wise choice to do something else? Also, coders are seen widely was geeky, spotty, awkward, weirdos, who cant get laid. And, um, they are often banging on about getting more women in the workplace. From a girls POV, that's sounding a bit iffy at best. My attitude is to just let women do what they want to do, and if I get a CV from one, well, I dont want to know if its a woman or not. I just want the skills. I dont care if its a man, woman, or what ever. Just don't get in anyones way and let nature take its course. But personally, I cant help thinking women are making a smart choice, and going for better way to spend life earning a crust. I mean, really, look at what we do. Its a terrible way to be. And we know this is true because even the big tech companies go out of their way trying to make offices and environments fun and exciting. And that is for men. Heh, even men hate it, and need a bouincy toy to distract them!!! I don't see many of other companies going this far. Why? Because the job is awful. So, men, stop trying to shit up womens lives by making them feel bad for not wanting to work down the mine.... sorry, code. XXXXX love you all, obviously ;)

detcader 13y ago
I dunno, programming can be as fun as any other art, and the money is good and secure. And I don't see how this analysis incorporates gender at all -- unless you're saying women are better at decision-making than men, heh
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
- tomp 13y ago
  > Don't become entrepreneurs. All the money, fame, and the joy of owning your own company is just ~terrible~. I think that a generally good advice, not just for "the Ladies" you refer to. Most businesses fail, many entrepreneurs burn out, and attributing money and fame to startup owners is caused by the survivorship bias.

eripaha 13y ago

Being a woman does not give person any extra value. Show us something interesting or go back in the kitchen.

detcader 13y ago
You seem pleasant..

scdoshi 13y ago

"Assigning a label to myself like “hacker” or “developer” gives me the heebie-jeebies." This in particular is not limited to women. As a guy from a non-CS background, I felt the same way for a long time. I'd say it's a function of experience rather than gender.

Cthulhu_ 13y ago
Any kind of label is imho somehting to be avoided. Hacker / developer / programmer, but also things like nerd/geek for that matter. Few of my colleagues here would be put into the latter categories if you met them on the street.

altero 13y ago

Hallelujah!

poorelise 13y ago

"It’s not because I can’t speak as well or I don’t know the material — it’s because he fits the mold so much better." Did you ever test that assumption?

dzink 13y ago

Kudos to Susie for putting herself out there to make a point! For everyone else debating this issue: to look at the problem objectively, we have to break down the different clusters of people that need encouragement and support to get into tech/startups in order to see how we measure and fix each cluster: 1. American children of any affiliation (race, sex, gender, location) need to learn how to code, because it is the literacy of the future - without it you are left behind in both earnings potential and career choices. To make that happen everyone here can take a step to show a child something cool they can do with code. Get them fired up about expressing their creativity with the tools of tech! For every one child that reminds you of you when you were young, pick three that don't, to make things even in the long run. 2. Niche groups, previously underrepresented in tech need better representation, because diverse perspectives raise the permutation of potential problems noticed, problems tackled and solutions possible, period. Representation also leads to better mentorship, resources, and an even start for everyone with talent and grit, regardless of background. Once we get a unicorn IPO from each underrepresented group, things will change. If we aren't getting those, something is wrong with 1) or 3) or both. 3. Existing representatives of underrepresented groups in tech who have the experience and skills to lead and build successful businesses today need to be able to receive the same support and the same proportion of support as regularly represented groups. Nothing more, nothing less. We have yet to see data from anyone about percentage of seed* funded startups out of 1000 applicants from their representative group. That data can easily close this conversation for good or surface a problem that can be addressed next if need be. If there is a real problem here however, teaching children how to code won't be the way we need to solve it. This is the only data we have seen and it is not encouraging: http://www.bostonglobe.com/magazine/2013/11/02/how-female-entrepreneurs-can-get-venture-capital-game/Ahn0XfhG3WABm8Q4uoAq6O/story.html?event=event12 http://www.bostonglobe.com/magazine/2013/11/02/how-female-en... . How would you detect or solve for a problem in this cluster? * mentioning seed, since that sample would be most likely to be sufficient to gauge trust in underrepresented groups by investors. Later rounds could skew for industry trends in the short run. The goal is to run a regression that shows objective information.

Cthulhu_ 13y ago
I dunno about 1; in a similar line, you'd have to teach them electronics, farming, carpentry, household, and how to get unemployment benefits. But I'm in favor of teaching kids all of the above though.

knackernews 13y ago

ITT: men arguing with men who say "If I were a woman"

yeukhon 13y ago

Here is my abridged comment: 1. It is important to like who you are and what you do. I am glad you are proud of being who you are, 2. But at the same time I don't like when people are calling out initiatives like "more women in tech". Look, getting a job is tough. It can be luck or qualification. I know someone is going to cite some research studies but at this point, let's just say yes we get it, a lot of assholes out there are discriminating women. But in reality, you can't stop them by hiring more women. You wish you could just get more women in manager level so that more women can be hired. That's not going to happen magically and hoping women managers hire more women is also acting discrimination. I am not comfortable with that kind of initiatives. It is as if I was a broker setting a goal for myself. That's just number game, there is nothing we gain from it other than growing the numbers. 3. All-girls class is just bad. For one it's like containing them, like putting them in a zoo and wait for them to do something amazing and then we pay a visit and cheer them for their accomplishment. Events meant for helping girls to find self-esteem is great but then again, too many is going to do damage because they soon will get attached to these "all-girls" environment. To actually work in the real world, one must accept the flaws and be ready to work with unfriendly people. What is even more frustrating is that we are dogfooding people with the crazy things CS and programming are doing. The ability to code is great, awesome. But coding is just a tool. Like every other tool out there, you can either make something awesome and powerful or something ugly and useless. Knowing how to code doesn't make you smarter or special. It's like knowing quantum physics suddenly makes you a wantable guy among your girlfriends? That's just bullshit (for some it's true but then that's just bullshit). And that's pretty much stereotyping. What we need is to stop telling girls or any group of people to do XYZ because they are the minority or is having disadvantage. Making exceptions to them isn't going to help them. I am Asian (Chinese to be exact) and if 20 years later Asian MD dominates like 80%, do we start another initiative to bring up other ethnicity? If all the ice cream truck drivers are Asians, do we want more diversity? If we think (or because studies have shown...) that girls don't end up in tech because they are afraid or because they were told they weren't good enough, having all-girl class won't solve the problem when they enter the real world either. Teach people about computer and web literacy, about science and engineering, about what people do in their daily jobs. Teach regardless of gender or race. We all deserve to know them and we don't need to have special non-profit organizations going after XYZ groups of people. Bring those things into core education.

Cthulhu_ 13y ago

Probably offtopic and inane, but, using the term 'girl' implies children/teenagers or other immature women; can people just use 'women' instead? Will help with getting taken serious and such.

jaimebuelta 13y ago

It's just me or describing in the tech world things that are rare but clearly do exist like 'unicorns' seems a little weird? (I know is quite common way of talk, but still...)

kolev 13y ago

Not every brain is wired well for programming (can we please stop calling it "coding") - male or female, but there's some advantage men get due to being generally better at abstract thinking. Some believe this is due to cultural differences (http://phys.org/news/2011-08-disputes-notion-men-spatial-women.html http://phys.org/news/2011-08-disputes-notion-men-spatial-wom...), but I personally believe it's all due to hormonal differences. For example, estrogen affects cognitive function, testosterone definitely boosts competitiveness, and so on. I know some will rush to downvote me as a sexist, but this will be far from the truth. On the contrary - this is a good defense on the discrepancies in the statistics and suggests this to be a software rather a hardware problem. I personally don't need third-party statistics - I have nearly 30 years of programming experience and less than 10% of my colleagues have been female and this ratio hasn't improved over time.

melindajb 13y ago

What girls of hackernews? that's my question. 224 comments as of writing this, and most of them ignorant straw man whiny responses by (surprise!) men. Hard to imagine why some women wouldn't enjoy coming here and discussing things with so many enlightened, educated folks. If you're threatened by the thought of more women in coding, then you don't really believe that we're a meritocracy. If you're one of those folks, then somewhere, deep in your heart, you know that things aren't fair, and when kick ass women programmers come in, you as a mediocre participant, will be pushed down to the bottom. Meritocracy wants the very best. Seeks out the very best. Welcomes the very best. To use an analogy, I can't imagine Olympic athletes being happy for the best competitors from another country being sidelined due to their sexual preference. No, that's not happening. because world class athletes know their victories are hollow unless they're truly competing against the very best in the world. Unlike Silicon Valley. We don't want competition. Nope, we want our nice, cozy little in crowd, keep that money nice and close so we can control it. As Chris Rock said, there's a difference between rich and wealthy. Michael Jordan is rich, the owner of the chicago bulls is wealthy. Women want to be wealthy, not just rich. African Americans want to be wealthy, not just rich. And right now, according to PG himself, the path to that wealth is by learning to code. So anyone trying to stop that from happening, can pretty much categorically be described as a bigot.

xrctl 13y ago
No. No one is threatened by women, just perhaps annoyed by their endless complaining. > To use an analogy, I can't imagine Olympic athletes being happy for the best competitors from another country being sidelined due to their sexual preference. No, that's not happening. because world class athletes know their victories are hollow unless they're truly competing against the very best in the world. But you can probably see how male Olympians would be annoyed if they had to put up with 24/7 accusations that their superior performance in comparison to female Olympians was only because how much they hated them.
- melindajb 13y ago
  You've completely miscategorized the nature of legitimate criticism. But why let facts stand in the way of a good argument?

tomc1985 13y ago

A lot of engineers I've known, tend to speak in plain, objective, sometimes even offensive terms. Most of the women I've met seem to react negatively to this style of communication. Further, social groups often try to be exclusive to those like them; I see this even at the company I work at. Different = bad Then there's the whispered complaining, from the fellas in the room, that they have to censor themselves when a woman is present. Engineering culture has a lot of growing to do before it can be seen as a welcoming group, whether to women or any other descriptor of people