6 ms·

Ingredients of an All-Natural Banana

68 points by joosters 13y ago

ye 13y ago
That's not an all-natural banana. Here's what natural bananas look like: http://cdnimg.visualizeus.com/thumbs/dc/2e/artificial_selection,banana,domestication,food,humans,natural-dc2e804177daa25fba41c856b53cadf2_h.jpg http://cdnimg.visualizeus.com/thumbs/dc/2e/artificial_select... What you buy in the store is genetically modified (through selection mainly).
- VLM 13y ago
  The author went to some effort to explain how he had an organic grown banana and then called it "all natural" instead of organic. Probably because organic has a totally different meaning WRT chemistry. "natural" is very much like the discredited theory of vitalism. Impossible to define such that you exclude twinkies and premade jars of frosting while still including the produce department.
  - smtddr 13y ago
    As someone who is an organic-foods believer, I feel it should be noted that in USA the term "All-Natural" is not[1] a term restricted by law. It doesn't assure you of anything. In contrast, to call something "Organic" or "USDA Organic" has a very legally[2] defined process. Whether or not these certifications are truly being enforced is a different story, but I really hope they are and I try to keep an eye out for stories informing the public that a particular company/brand violated this commitment in some way. Oddly enough, the fact that Naked fruit-juice brand had to remove[3] "All Natural" from its labeling makes no sense to me since "All Natural" means nothing. I don't know what law the courts think they enforced here. 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_foods http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_foods >>“Natural foods” and “all natural foods” are widely used terms in food labeling and marketing with a variety of definitions, most of which are vague. The term is assumed to imply foods that are minimally processed and do not contain manufactured ingredients, but the lack of standards in most jurisdictions means that the term assures nothing. 2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_certification http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_certification >>In the United States, federal legislation defines three levels of organic foods.[8] Products made entirely with certified organic ingredients and methods can be labeled "100% organic," while only products with at least 95% organic ingredients may be labeled "organic." Both of these categories may also display the USDA Organic seal. A third category, containing a minimum of 70% organic ingredients, can be labeled "made with organic ingredients," but may not display the USDA Organic seal. In addition, products may also display the logo of the certification body that approved them. 3. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/26/naked-juices-natural-pepsi_n_3659247.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/26/naked-juices-natura...
- aroch 13y ago
  What exactly is not natural about human-caused selection? As far as the banana is concerned, we're a "predator" that increasingly preys on banana plants which produce fewer seeds but bigger, sweeter ovary. It's a directed, inverse selection pressure. There is nothing "not natural" about human-directed selection for agriculture.
  - ye 13y ago
    > What exactly is not natural about human-caused selection? It's, by definition, artificial selection. With your "logic" everything is natural.
    - aroch 13y ago
      Nothing about artificial selection in this instance is unnatural.
    - curiousAl 13y ago
      Well, it's probably a little more complicated than that. Yes, if we define any actions taken by humans as "artificial", then it's "un-natural". BUT, putting selective pressure on a plant to be more delicious and/or possibly nutritious is as natural with humans as it is with much of the animal kingdom. The edible fruit has an evolutionary incentive to taste better, and therefore produce more offspring. Trying to assign a good or bad grade to this is exactly the naturalistic fallacy.
    - hughlomas 13y ago
      A name is not a definition. Artificial selection is a subset of natural selection. Humans are natural components of the environment for the thing being selected.
      - TheZenPsycho 13y ago
        With no definition for "Not natural", you render the word "Natural" essentially meaningless- turning it into a "valid" adjective encompassing everything. Which, for reasons that should be obvious, makes it problematic as a word for promoting certain types of food. Since humans are components of the ecosystem, twinkies are technically "natural", right?
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
- aroch 13y ago
  I'd say the point is mostly that those big, scary sounding chemical names you see in products that "Organic" companies like to point to really aren't scary at all.
  - zzzeek 13y ago
    what are some of those specific "scary sounding chemical names" an "Organic" company points towards? I'm not familiar with organic companies intentionally trying to fool people that particular naturally occurring agents are harmful. The kinds of agents they do point to are typically synthetic compounds which are widely suspected of being harmful but are still in wide use such as bisphenol A used in plastic containers.
    - aroch 13y ago
      Many organic companies, particularly in the cosmetics and toiletry market, like advertising their products as "all natural" and "without scary chemicals". For example, products that like to villainize both Nitrates/Nitrites and MSG. Hell, pretty much any bacon, sausage or cured products advertised as "Nitrate-free" or as "No Nitrated added" are relying on the fact that you think Nitrates are bad while still adding nitrates. Instead of adding Sodium Nitrate to their products they remain "all natural" and "organic" by adding celery juice, which is high in nitrates.
      - anthonyb 13y ago
        Nitrates aren't harmful in themselves - it's the Nitrosamines that they can produce under certain conditions, which are very definitely carcinogenic. Probably not so bad these days, since there have been steps taken to reduce the amount of nitrosamine in all sorts of foodstuffs. There's a good overview at http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/f-w00/nitrosamine.html http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/f-w00/nitrosamine.html Given most of the information there, it's possibly a good reason to avoid the hippie celery juice bacon (though I've never seen it in the stores), mainly because you don't know how much nitrate you're getting. But it's a little more complex than "Lol, hippies."
cing 13y ago
The author seems to be putting quite a bit of time into making these by hand. I wonder if it's possible to auto-generate these diagram/infographics for arbitrary food items and ingredient lists using nutritiondata.com and chemical databases.
- aroch 13y ago
  Yes/No; you'd need to do extractions[1] and GC-MS[2] at the very least to get the possible compound list. Plant / animal tissue is fairly complex, and while we can guesstimate compounds and relative percentages there are some obvious issues with this if we want to use them as canon. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid%E2%80%93liquid_extraction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid%E2%80%93liquid_extracti... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_chromatography%E2%80%93mass_spectrometry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_chromatography%E2%80%93mas...
  - Blahah 13y ago
    This has already been done, and is contained in the USDA nutrient database (http://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ http://ndb.nal.usda.gov/), among others.
    - aroch 13y ago
      I know...but this is not the same as being able to procedurally generate this for arbitrary samples
    - innguest 13y ago
      I'm an absolute layman when it comes to this subject, so forgive my verbosity and lack of proper terminology: When I clicked on that link and searched for "banana" and then clicked on "banana, raw", I was hoping to see a list of the scary-looking names I saw on the blog post that started this thread. I only see things I recognize. I think what would be cool/interesting (and I'm guessing what cing meant to say) would be if there were a way to get that list (the scary-looking one, not the vitamins and minerals one) from some procedure done to a vegetable. In that sense, the link you provided does not have the same information that the author of the blog post is (apparently) compiling by hand.
bjackman 13y ago
This is fantastic! I don't eat meat, and out of laziness I often get my protein from Quorn, which is a brand of Mycoprotein. People often say "but it's synthetic! It's made in vats!". This is true. So what? I was having this debate with someone and we had a look at the ingredients. My opponent pointed triumphantly at "rehydrated corn starch" (i.e. flour and water). "See, it's processed!", she said. I wish we could get away from the idea that Stainless Steel Bad, Wood and Leather Good. I suspect a lot of people would be horrified to see the shiny metallic interior of that temple of Natural Goodness the Innocent Smoothie factory! ps: "out of laziness" - not because there's anything wrong with Quorn as a source of nutrients; it's just a pretty boring way to cook and eat!
- Blahah 13y ago
  To be pedantic, Quorn is not synthetic. It's made by intensive farming of fungi, not by pure abiotic chemical synthesis. But I agree with all your points :)
  - victorhooi 13y ago
    You know what, I'm not a vegetarian - but that Quorn stuff looks interesting. Low-fat, high protein - and it's mushrooms! (I like mushrooms...haha). I might see if it's available here in Australia - how do you find the taste? And do you use it as a major component in your diet?
    - Falling3 13y ago
      I've been vegan about as long as I've been vegetarian. Since quorn has almost no vegan options (this has changed very recently), I haven't had a chance to try. But there are several other vegetarian products that are delicious and satisfying that I have enjoyed more than their "real" counterparts.
    - Blahah 13y ago
      I've eaten it for about six years. The basic ingredient has no flavour, but is very good at taking on flavours in a dish. Mostly it's sold pre-flavoured in some way (like chicken-style, beef-style, etc.) and these tend to be pretty nice too. As a way to get started, chicken-style pieces are excellent for stir-frys.
mast 13y ago
While interesting, I think these diagrams are dangerous. They send a message that if fresh fruits contain these "scary" chemicals, then we shouldn't worry about the chemicals we see in processed foods. The problem is that some processed foods really do contain chemicals we should be afraid of. Artificial colours or things like calcium disodium EDTA are good examples. My part time project has been to try and provide some simple to understand descriptions of the "scary" chemicals at http://foodconstrued.com http://foodconstrued.com
asdfs 13y ago
What's the opposition to MSG? I was under the impression that it was fine, though that there was a possibility that some people have adverse reactions to it — but if you're not one of those people, it's nothing to be concerned about.

68 points by joosters 13y ago

ye 13y ago

That's not an all-natural banana. Here's what natural bananas look like: http://cdnimg.visualizeus.com/thumbs/dc/2e/artificial_selection,banana,domestication,food,humans,natural-dc2e804177daa25fba41c856b53cadf2_h.jpg http://cdnimg.visualizeus.com/thumbs/dc/2e/artificial_select... What you buy in the store is genetically modified (through selection mainly).

VLM 13y ago
The author went to some effort to explain how he had an organic grown banana and then called it "all natural" instead of organic. Probably because organic has a totally different meaning WRT chemistry. "natural" is very much like the discredited theory of vitalism. Impossible to define such that you exclude twinkies and premade jars of frosting while still including the produce department.
- smtddr 13y ago
  As someone who is an organic-foods believer, I feel it should be noted that in USA the term "All-Natural" is not[1] a term restricted by law. It doesn't assure you of anything. In contrast, to call something "Organic" or "USDA Organic" has a very legally[2] defined process. Whether or not these certifications are truly being enforced is a different story, but I really hope they are and I try to keep an eye out for stories informing the public that a particular company/brand violated this commitment in some way. Oddly enough, the fact that Naked fruit-juice brand had to remove[3] "All Natural" from its labeling makes no sense to me since "All Natural" means nothing. I don't know what law the courts think they enforced here. 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_foods http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_foods >>“Natural foods” and “all natural foods” are widely used terms in food labeling and marketing with a variety of definitions, most of which are vague. The term is assumed to imply foods that are minimally processed and do not contain manufactured ingredients, but the lack of standards in most jurisdictions means that the term assures nothing. 2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_certification http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_certification >>In the United States, federal legislation defines three levels of organic foods.[8] Products made entirely with certified organic ingredients and methods can be labeled "100% organic," while only products with at least 95% organic ingredients may be labeled "organic." Both of these categories may also display the USDA Organic seal. A third category, containing a minimum of 70% organic ingredients, can be labeled "made with organic ingredients," but may not display the USDA Organic seal. In addition, products may also display the logo of the certification body that approved them. 3. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/26/naked-juices-natural-pepsi_n_3659247.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/26/naked-juices-natura...
aroch 13y ago
What exactly is not natural about human-caused selection? As far as the banana is concerned, we're a "predator" that increasingly preys on banana plants which produce fewer seeds but bigger, sweeter ovary. It's a directed, inverse selection pressure. There is nothing "not natural" about human-directed selection for agriculture.
- ye 13y ago
  > What exactly is not natural about human-caused selection? It's, by definition, artificial selection. With your "logic" everything is natural.
  - aroch 13y ago
    Nothing about artificial selection in this instance is unnatural.
  - curiousAl 13y ago
    Well, it's probably a little more complicated than that. Yes, if we define any actions taken by humans as "artificial", then it's "un-natural". BUT, putting selective pressure on a plant to be more delicious and/or possibly nutritious is as natural with humans as it is with much of the animal kingdom. The edible fruit has an evolutionary incentive to taste better, and therefore produce more offspring. Trying to assign a good or bad grade to this is exactly the naturalistic fallacy.
  - hughlomas 13y ago
    A name is not a definition. Artificial selection is a subset of natural selection. Humans are natural components of the environment for the thing being selected.
    - TheZenPsycho 13y ago
      With no definition for "Not natural", you render the word "Natural" essentially meaningless- turning it into a "valid" adjective encompassing everything. Which, for reasons that should be obvious, makes it problematic as a word for promoting certain types of food. Since humans are components of the ecosystem, twinkies are technically "natural", right?

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

aroch 13y ago
I'd say the point is mostly that those big, scary sounding chemical names you see in products that "Organic" companies like to point to really aren't scary at all.
- zzzeek 13y ago
  what are some of those specific "scary sounding chemical names" an "Organic" company points towards? I'm not familiar with organic companies intentionally trying to fool people that particular naturally occurring agents are harmful. The kinds of agents they do point to are typically synthetic compounds which are widely suspected of being harmful but are still in wide use such as bisphenol A used in plastic containers.
  - aroch 13y ago
    Many organic companies, particularly in the cosmetics and toiletry market, like advertising their products as "all natural" and "without scary chemicals". For example, products that like to villainize both Nitrates/Nitrites and MSG. Hell, pretty much any bacon, sausage or cured products advertised as "Nitrate-free" or as "No Nitrated added" are relying on the fact that you think Nitrates are bad while still adding nitrates. Instead of adding Sodium Nitrate to their products they remain "all natural" and "organic" by adding celery juice, which is high in nitrates.
    - anthonyb 13y ago
      Nitrates aren't harmful in themselves - it's the Nitrosamines that they can produce under certain conditions, which are very definitely carcinogenic. Probably not so bad these days, since there have been steps taken to reduce the amount of nitrosamine in all sorts of foodstuffs. There's a good overview at http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/f-w00/nitrosamine.html http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/f-w00/nitrosamine.html Given most of the information there, it's possibly a good reason to avoid the hippie celery juice bacon (though I've never seen it in the stores), mainly because you don't know how much nitrate you're getting. But it's a little more complex than "Lol, hippies."

cing 13y ago

The author seems to be putting quite a bit of time into making these by hand. I wonder if it's possible to auto-generate these diagram/infographics for arbitrary food items and ingredient lists using nutritiondata.com and chemical databases.

aroch 13y ago
Yes/No; you'd need to do extractions[1] and GC-MS[2] at the very least to get the possible compound list. Plant / animal tissue is fairly complex, and while we can guesstimate compounds and relative percentages there are some obvious issues with this if we want to use them as canon. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid%E2%80%93liquid_extraction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid%E2%80%93liquid_extracti... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_chromatography%E2%80%93mass_spectrometry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_chromatography%E2%80%93mas...
- Blahah 13y ago
  This has already been done, and is contained in the USDA nutrient database (http://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ http://ndb.nal.usda.gov/), among others.
  - aroch 13y ago
    I know...but this is not the same as being able to procedurally generate this for arbitrary samples
  - innguest 13y ago
    I'm an absolute layman when it comes to this subject, so forgive my verbosity and lack of proper terminology: When I clicked on that link and searched for "banana" and then clicked on "banana, raw", I was hoping to see a list of the scary-looking names I saw on the blog post that started this thread. I only see things I recognize. I think what would be cool/interesting (and I'm guessing what cing meant to say) would be if there were a way to get that list (the scary-looking one, not the vitamins and minerals one) from some procedure done to a vegetable. In that sense, the link you provided does not have the same information that the author of the blog post is (apparently) compiling by hand.

bjackman 13y ago

This is fantastic! I don't eat meat, and out of laziness I often get my protein from Quorn, which is a brand of Mycoprotein. People often say "but it's synthetic! It's made in vats!". This is true. So what? I was having this debate with someone and we had a look at the ingredients. My opponent pointed triumphantly at "rehydrated corn starch" (i.e. flour and water). "See, it's processed!", she said. I wish we could get away from the idea that Stainless Steel Bad, Wood and Leather Good. I suspect a lot of people would be horrified to see the shiny metallic interior of that temple of Natural Goodness the Innocent Smoothie factory! ps: "out of laziness" - not because there's anything wrong with Quorn as a source of nutrients; it's just a pretty boring way to cook and eat!

Blahah 13y ago
To be pedantic, Quorn is not synthetic. It's made by intensive farming of fungi, not by pure abiotic chemical synthesis. But I agree with all your points :)
- victorhooi 13y ago
  You know what, I'm not a vegetarian - but that Quorn stuff looks interesting. Low-fat, high protein - and it's mushrooms! (I like mushrooms...haha). I might see if it's available here in Australia - how do you find the taste? And do you use it as a major component in your diet?
  - Falling3 13y ago
    I've been vegan about as long as I've been vegetarian. Since quorn has almost no vegan options (this has changed very recently), I haven't had a chance to try. But there are several other vegetarian products that are delicious and satisfying that I have enjoyed more than their "real" counterparts.
  - Blahah 13y ago
    I've eaten it for about six years. The basic ingredient has no flavour, but is very good at taking on flavours in a dish. Mostly it's sold pre-flavoured in some way (like chicken-style, beef-style, etc.) and these tend to be pretty nice too. As a way to get started, chicken-style pieces are excellent for stir-frys.

mast 13y ago

While interesting, I think these diagrams are dangerous. They send a message that if fresh fruits contain these "scary" chemicals, then we shouldn't worry about the chemicals we see in processed foods. The problem is that some processed foods really do contain chemicals we should be afraid of. Artificial colours or things like calcium disodium EDTA are good examples. My part time project has been to try and provide some simple to understand descriptions of the "scary" chemicals at http://foodconstrued.com http://foodconstrued.com

asdfs 13y ago

What's the opposition to MSG? I was under the impression that it was fine, though that there was a possibility that some people have adverse reactions to it — but if you're not one of those people, it's nothing to be concerned about.