7 ms·

When I first left America, I disliked and felt disillusioned with the country. I've now spent more of my adult life outside the States than in the U.S., and I'

When I first left America, I disliked and felt disillusioned with the country. I've now spent more of my adult life outside the States than in the U.S., and I've also come to the opinion that the U.S. is one of the most amazing places in the world. Sometimes it's hard to point to exactly why America is so amazing. And the answer, maybe, is on display here. An undergraduate student at an elite university just innovatively, publicly, aggressively pushed back against the Dean. He cited his values and reasoning for doing so. He took care to make sure his work wouldn't damage their physical resources or break the letter of the law. And then he openly acknowledges they could punish him, and welcomes the attempt. And it's not really even a big deal. It's just standard being-an-American stuff. All kinds of bad things in the States. And sometimes the spirit of defiance can get tired or come across overbearing. But it's really cool that it's a regular, run of the mill occurrence for people to push back against norms and restrictions in American society without any fear of long-term repercussions. It's also really, really, really weird. Seriously, stop and reflect on this for a moment. I spend a lot of time in Asia, and doing this in just about any Asian country would ruin a lot of your life prospects. And for us, it's just a matter of course. How strange. And wonderful.

superflit 13y ago
I really wish some US americans value it more. Living for 3 years in US, loved the country and its infrastructure/legal system, country, people all of it. It is not perfect but still is one the best we have. Do you think NSA and military are ''bad'' you did not know what the other countries counterpart do (hint... worse and mean)
- RivieraKid 13y ago
  What county did you live in before?
  - superflit 13y ago
    Brazil.... With the whole populism thing..
throwawaykf03 13y ago
You're obviously delusional because something something NSA war on drugs war on terror civil liberties TSA government. (Also, it's not just Asian countries, there are some Western countries where your life would be ruined as well.)
cliveowen 13y ago
You could read it that way, or you could say that this miniscule altercation between a student and the dean of an Ivy League university, both part of an elite group that knows little about the real struggles the rest of the world faces on a daily basis, has been elevated to something important while its not and it's been given way too much attention than it deserves. How many college campuses and universities in the world struggle with real problems with real consequences to society like female students getting raped in dark alleys and fraud/bribery/plagiarism and never get the attention they deserve? The fact that this inconsequential squabble gets discussed so much and gets portrayed as the fight between David and "Goliath The Man", instead of being seen as a public tantrum being thrown by a spoiled kid living a cushioned life inside a cocoon made out of hopes and dreams, makes me sick to my stomach.
- dasil003 13y ago
  Taking that line of reasoning to its conclusion, there can only be one worst thing that happened to someone in the history of the world, and every other person's problems pale in comparison and are therefore inconsequential and should be brushed off as first-world problems.
  - cliveowen 13y ago
    Sure, taking things to the extremes has been proved to be the best way to start a discussion and the only sure way to show an unbiased view of the facts at hand. I'm impressed by your incredible level-headedness, sir.
    - aaronem 13y ago
      Well, and who better than you to decide what's biased and what's not? And what could be more level-headed than to say that "[the matter at hand] makes me sick to my stomach"? Leaving snark aside, it seems telling that both your leveller's bias, and your repellent pride in same, are entirely compatible in your own mind with the sort of "let's all be grown-ups here, shall we?" pose you take one comment later. "Unbiased" and "level-headed", it seems, mean exactly what you define them to mean, and you define them to mean being entirely in agreement with how you yourself regard these matters. I find this rather marvelous, or would if it weren't so lamentably common.
ZoFreX 13y ago
I'm British and I did things like this constantly throughout school and university. Then again, people do keep asking if I am American...
- blibble 13y ago
  here in the UK the Education Act 1986 makes it a duty of a University to safeguard its members freedom of speech (within the law), and makes it unlawful for a University to do what Yale did here. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1986/61/section/43 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1986/61/section/43
  - throwaway_yy2Di 13y ago
    I'm sure the Yale bureaucracy likewise has reams of paper scribbled with words like "academic freedom" and "free discourse". What's interesting is that people are actively defending these principles at personal cost -- not idly hoping for some high hallowed office to dole them out. That's the observation.
    - blibble 13y ago
      if you wish to be pedantic they seem to be working around the university using clever technical hacks, rather than fighting the underlying issue. (note that it's the law in the UK, not some worthless university document)
      - throwaway_yy2Di 13y ago
        This is an active and vibrant defense of freedom, not some worthless British law. (Oh I'm sorry, did I just libel Her Majesty's judicial system? How careless of me. I should watch what I write).
        blibble 13y ago
        > This is an active and vibrant defense of freedom, not some worthless British law. > (Oh I'm sorry, did I just libel Her Majesty's judicial system? How careless of me. I should watch what I write). guess I missed the bit of the US constitution where other people's databases were considered protected speech.
pdb123 13y ago
As another American, I completely agree that this is wonderful. We both like this behavior because it's in accordance with our culture and values. But the example of Asian culture that you bring up is interesting. Japan (and to some extent China) are undeniably successful countries/cultures. Yet I'd guess that if a student acted this way there, he or she wouldn't be able to find a job. How do we know that having undue respect for hierarchy is objectively a bad thing?
- slurry 13y ago
  How do we know that having undue respect for hierarchy is objectively a bad thing? I'd say China in the late Qing Dynasty would be a good data point for it being a bad thing. Or a compare-and-contrast of Spain and the Netherlands in the early modern period. With respect to Japan, yeah, we think of it as super-hierarchical. Then again, Japan had two major hierarchy-toppling social revolutions pretty recently. First the military-imperial apparatus toppled the feudal nobility during the Meiji Restoration. Then General McArthur toppled the military-imperial apparatus during the American occupation. So, perhaps the slope of the long term trend line is as important as the current value?
stefantalpalaru 13y ago
> without any fear of long-term repercussions Would you consider being investigated by the FBI as a possible terrorism threat[1] a long-term repercussion? [1]: http://www.justiceonline.org/commentary/fbi-files-ows.html http://www.justiceonline.org/commentary/fbi-files-ows.html
Sprint 13y ago
Yeah, no one else could ever think of doing something like this. Imagine someone in Europe, LOL! They just don't have the same standards for freedom or patriotism (as in standing up to defend our constitution) overseas! Oh America, the land of the free and the home of the brave! edit: Of course let's make it clear that America means the United States of America here. In Brazil or Chile people just would not care!
- triplesec 13y ago
  <irony tag> just in case some people read that straight up good work, sir!
thisiswrong 13y ago
> I've now spent more of my adult life outside the States than in the U.S., and I've also come to the opinion that the U.S. is one of the most amazing places in the world. Yes. The American backed/sponsored slaughter of innocent men, women, and children across the Middle East and Africa in the name of profit, power, and greed doesn't seem to cross your mind. Also, it's clear that as an American you have free speech, but Americans who speak too freely might not wake up to see tomorrow [1] [2] [1] http://www.globalresearch.ca/who-killed-michael-hastings/5355606 http://www.globalresearch.ca/who-killed-michael-hastings/535... [2] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/may/22/white-house-drone-strikes-us-citizens http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/may/22/white-house-dro...
- pliny 13y ago
  When comparing things (the US is one of the most amazing places in the world -> the US is amazing in comparison to most places) it's usually more important to focus on differences rather than similarities. State-sponsored slaughter of innocent people in the Middle East and Africa is a pastime enthusiastically practiced by Canada and all of the "important" European nations (UK, Germany, France, and to a lesser extent Scandinavians) not just by the US.
  - ghshephard 13y ago
    Could I get a Citation on Canada slaughtering innocent people in both the Middle East and Africa? I wasn't aware they had a deployed army large enough to be involved in "slaughtering" - and I know they declined to support the United States Incursion into Iraq - So I'm wondering where you are going with this...
    - Aloha 13y ago
      Canada has been a willing participant in Afghanistan[1] and as complicit as most of the world is in relations with Saudi Arabia.[2] While complicitness is not the same a direct action, it furthers the argument that I wish to make - in international relations, there is no such thing as clean hands. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada's_role_in_the_Afghanistan_War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada's_role_in_the_Afghanista... - [2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada%E2%80%93Saudi_Arabia_relations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada%E2%80%93Saudi_Arabia_rel...
the_af 13y ago
Without diminishing what you say, it happens in other democratic countries as well. In many Latin American universities (and even lower education) the students are a force to be reckoned with. For example, in recent years a student coalition demonstrated against the education policies of former president of Chile, Sebastián Piñera, and it was a major crisis. Similar demonstrations can happen against, for example, the principal of a university or school in other countries. The students protest even when they risk being expelled. The US seems mild in comparison...
- superpatosainz 13y ago
  Not to be pedantic, but Piñera at this very moment is still governing and Michelle Bachelet has not taken his post yet.
  - the_af 13y ago
    True! I forgot he wasn't out yet (I'm not from Chile).
- dnautics 13y ago
  Not to say that group action is bad, part of the point of the top comment is that this is an individual action, and it would be relatively easy to bring the hammer of authority down on this one person, which is a distinguishing factor here. Moreover, (and possibly easier because it's a single indvidual) the ethical rationale are listed in a declaratory form, which is not always the case in mass student actions.
bane 13y ago
People are varied just about everywhere. I've also spent a bit of time overseas and one attitude I rarely find and sometimes miss is the American style rock-n-roll fuck authority I'm gonna do what I want attitude. There are similar attitudes elsewhere, but they're a bit different than the American one. And I agree, in Asia, it's very absent. I used to be surprised when I'd see an interview with some very hard rock band in Asia and they'd spend the interview quietly bowing and talking more or less like the proper primped pop-idol they just had on. It felt like the rock image was just a costume rather than being the free spirit of the person coming out. I've seen so many occasions in Asia where a situation called for an American style go fuck yourself response and it never appeared. I think a great many of the social ills you find in Confucian countries could be resolved with a sprinkle of American style rock and roll. You're right though, taking that kind of life approach in Asia can be a life destroyer. In America there's enough of a critical mass of people who have and understand that kind of approach to life, and accept it in others, that you can be that way and find enough of a support network to still live a good life. Europeans, in my observation, have a different kind of attitude. It's more of a fuck the old guard, fuck the status quo attitude that's probably informed by the last couple hundred years of European history. It can take on many of the same kinds of symbols and stylings as the American rock n roll way, but I think it has different goals and expected outcomes. I also agree that the American attitude, while good for some things, can become boring and tiresome when it turns into stupid contrariness for the sake of being oppositional.
- Jare 13y ago
  If I had to summarize European vs NAmerican, I'd say European is more group-based whereas in the USA it's almost always about the individual (even group protests feel more like a lot of individuals than a single group). Anecdotally, as an European, I can say that I always have a gut feeling of distrust when I meet someone very charismatic or who clearly loves going at things alone.
higherpurpose 13y ago
Now if only US can maintain that. The trend is certainly not in its favor. Corrupt media who doesn't tend to cover stuff that truly hurt the government's power, the rise of the police/SWAT state, the rise of the surveillance state, the upcoming conflict over what drones can or can not do in US, and so on.
Gracana 13y ago
> It's just standard being-an-American stuff. [...] it's really cool that it's a regular, run of the mill occurrence for people to push back against norms and restrictions in American society without any fear of long-term repercussions. It's standard privileged American stuff. It's great that this guy can push back, but try being a Spanish-speaking factory temp trying to push back and get proper training and safety equipment, or try being a waitress at a bar trying to push back against harassing customers and mistreatment from management. Some people's lives depend on buckling under; they don't get to do the pushing because they will lose their jobs.
- jcc80 13y ago
  Please don't pollute this thread with the social justice warrior stuff. The student could be punished and people that don't speak English or want a different waitressing job aren't helpless.
  - eropple 13y ago
    An understanding that social position gives you power and options that others without your advantages of birth may lack is not "social justice warrior" stuff, it's basic sense.
    - jcc80 13y ago
      I'm not familiar with Sean Haufler's "advantages of birth". If you are familiar with him and his family, and feel it would be appropriate to this discussion, then have at it I guess.
      - eropple 13y ago
        He got into Yale and you're wondering what advantages he has? Let's set aside for a second the high-end schools' tendency towards legacy admissions, which clearly isn't going to be biased towards the children of the upper class who are certainly not predominantly white and loaded (that smell is not the dog, folks, it's sarcasm). Have you seen the demographics of Yale[1]? Even just racial demographics put WTFs to this[2]. 7% of Yale students are black--16% of Americans born between 1992 and 1996 are black (and overwhelmingly poor). 9% of Yale students are Hispanic. 14% of Americans born between 1992 and 1996 are Hispanic (and are comparatively only often poor). Does that seem like it makes sense to you if certain populations weren't getting advantages based on external factors? "They pick the best" often comes up as a possibility to answer that. Because they sort of do, social signaling aside (and Haufler is white and male so he's a few rungs up that ladder too). But isn't it funny how "the best" generally also correlates to "white or Asian and rich"? SAT scores against income[3] are pretty indicative; SAT against racial demographics[also 3] likewise. This is not hard: non-Asian minorities are overwhelmingly more likely to be really-goddam-poor than whites and Asians and are much more likely to score like shit on the signaling tests that are your ticket to the upper-crust-signaling environment of a Yale. (And, as mentioned, even poor whites are more likely to have the social signals that are attractive to groups that select for "their type of people"--like, you know, most societal gatekeepers.) The conflation of economic and social advantages what makes these people privileged. Crack babies don't get into Yale[4]. Children of illegal immigrants don't get into Yale. People who grow up in extreme poverty don't get into Yale. That doesn't make people who get into Yale bad but it does mean that they have advantages that need to be recognized over the girl who didn't get the opportunity to learn English or the guy who didn't get the opportunity to grow up in a safe environment where school was valued. Or, y'know, their kids when it's their turn to not be even remotely close to the "right stuff" for Yale. And this is what the guy you dismissively shat on for no good reason understands: that it's important for us, as people with incredible luck and massive advantages, aware that no, not everyone has these advantages, and so it behooves us to do right by them, too. What Haufler did is cool and it sucks that his amazingly selective private school got frowny at a student for a similar project, but as injustices go, this shit's pretty small--if he's of a mind to, he's gonna walk out of college into a job making no less than the eighty-eighth percentile of individual income in this country[5]. Having your kids be nearly guaranteed to do no better, and probably worse, than you did, in a system designed to keep you where you are? That's pretty big. That's what he's saying. That's what's actually important. -- [1] http://oir.yale.edu/yale-factsheet http://oir.yale.edu/yale-factsheet [2] http://www.childstats.gov/americaschildren/tables/pop3.asp http://www.childstats.gov/americaschildren/tables/pop3.asp [3] http://domesatreview.com/content/sat-test-demographics-income-and-ethnicity http://domesatreview.com/content/sat-test-demographics-incom... [4] Oh please please please be the person who thinks two counterexamples invalidate statistics please please please it's been too long. Please and thank you. [5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States#Income_distribution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_S...
RivieraKid 13y ago
> It's just standard being-an-American stuff. This kind behavior is probably more typical in the US than in Asia, but even more so in, let's say, France or the UK. I would say that many European countries have more individualism and freedom of expression than the US.

superflit 13y ago

I really wish some US americans value it more. Living for 3 years in US, loved the country and its infrastructure/legal system, country, people all of it. It is not perfect but still is one the best we have. Do you think NSA and military are ''bad'' you did not know what the other countries counterpart do (hint... worse and mean)

RivieraKid 13y ago
What county did you live in before?
- superflit 13y ago
  Brazil.... With the whole populism thing..

throwawaykf03 13y ago

You're obviously delusional because something something NSA war on drugs war on terror civil liberties TSA government. (Also, it's not just Asian countries, there are some Western countries where your life would be ruined as well.)

cliveowen 13y ago

You could read it that way, or you could say that this miniscule altercation between a student and the dean of an Ivy League university, both part of an elite group that knows little about the real struggles the rest of the world faces on a daily basis, has been elevated to something important while its not and it's been given way too much attention than it deserves. How many college campuses and universities in the world struggle with real problems with real consequences to society like female students getting raped in dark alleys and fraud/bribery/plagiarism and never get the attention they deserve? The fact that this inconsequential squabble gets discussed so much and gets portrayed as the fight between David and "Goliath The Man", instead of being seen as a public tantrum being thrown by a spoiled kid living a cushioned life inside a cocoon made out of hopes and dreams, makes me sick to my stomach.

dasil003 13y ago
Taking that line of reasoning to its conclusion, there can only be one worst thing that happened to someone in the history of the world, and every other person's problems pale in comparison and are therefore inconsequential and should be brushed off as first-world problems.
- cliveowen 13y ago
  Sure, taking things to the extremes has been proved to be the best way to start a discussion and the only sure way to show an unbiased view of the facts at hand. I'm impressed by your incredible level-headedness, sir.
  - aaronem 13y ago
    Well, and who better than you to decide what's biased and what's not? And what could be more level-headed than to say that "[the matter at hand] makes me sick to my stomach"? Leaving snark aside, it seems telling that both your leveller's bias, and your repellent pride in same, are entirely compatible in your own mind with the sort of "let's all be grown-ups here, shall we?" pose you take one comment later. "Unbiased" and "level-headed", it seems, mean exactly what you define them to mean, and you define them to mean being entirely in agreement with how you yourself regard these matters. I find this rather marvelous, or would if it weren't so lamentably common.

ZoFreX 13y ago

I'm British and I did things like this constantly throughout school and university. Then again, people do keep asking if I am American...

blibble 13y ago
here in the UK the Education Act 1986 makes it a duty of a University to safeguard its members freedom of speech (within the law), and makes it unlawful for a University to do what Yale did here. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1986/61/section/43 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1986/61/section/43
- throwaway_yy2Di 13y ago
  I'm sure the Yale bureaucracy likewise has reams of paper scribbled with words like "academic freedom" and "free discourse". What's interesting is that people are actively defending these principles at personal cost -- not idly hoping for some high hallowed office to dole them out. That's the observation.
  - blibble 13y ago
    if you wish to be pedantic they seem to be working around the university using clever technical hacks, rather than fighting the underlying issue. (note that it's the law in the UK, not some worthless university document)
    - throwaway_yy2Di 13y ago
      This is an active and vibrant defense of freedom, not some worthless British law. (Oh I'm sorry, did I just libel Her Majesty's judicial system? How careless of me. I should watch what I write).
      - blibble 13y ago
        > This is an active and vibrant defense of freedom, not some worthless British law. > (Oh I'm sorry, did I just libel Her Majesty's judicial system? How careless of me. I should watch what I write). guess I missed the bit of the US constitution where other people's databases were considered protected speech.

pdb123 13y ago

As another American, I completely agree that this is wonderful. We both like this behavior because it's in accordance with our culture and values. But the example of Asian culture that you bring up is interesting. Japan (and to some extent China) are undeniably successful countries/cultures. Yet I'd guess that if a student acted this way there, he or she wouldn't be able to find a job. How do we know that having undue respect for hierarchy is objectively a bad thing?

slurry 13y ago
How do we know that having undue respect for hierarchy is objectively a bad thing? I'd say China in the late Qing Dynasty would be a good data point for it being a bad thing. Or a compare-and-contrast of Spain and the Netherlands in the early modern period. With respect to Japan, yeah, we think of it as super-hierarchical. Then again, Japan had two major hierarchy-toppling social revolutions pretty recently. First the military-imperial apparatus toppled the feudal nobility during the Meiji Restoration. Then General McArthur toppled the military-imperial apparatus during the American occupation. So, perhaps the slope of the long term trend line is as important as the current value?

stefantalpalaru 13y ago

> without any fear of long-term repercussions Would you consider being investigated by the FBI as a possible terrorism threat[1] a long-term repercussion? [1]: http://www.justiceonline.org/commentary/fbi-files-ows.html http://www.justiceonline.org/commentary/fbi-files-ows.html

Sprint 13y ago

Yeah, no one else could ever think of doing something like this. Imagine someone in Europe, LOL! They just don't have the same standards for freedom or patriotism (as in standing up to defend our constitution) overseas! Oh America, the land of the free and the home of the brave! edit: Of course let's make it clear that America means the United States of America here. In Brazil or Chile people just would not care!

triplesec 13y ago
<irony tag> just in case some people read that straight up good work, sir!

thisiswrong 13y ago

> I've now spent more of my adult life outside the States than in the U.S., and I've also come to the opinion that the U.S. is one of the most amazing places in the world. Yes. The American backed/sponsored slaughter of innocent men, women, and children across the Middle East and Africa in the name of profit, power, and greed doesn't seem to cross your mind. Also, it's clear that as an American you have free speech, but Americans who speak too freely might not wake up to see tomorrow [1] [2] [1] http://www.globalresearch.ca/who-killed-michael-hastings/5355606 http://www.globalresearch.ca/who-killed-michael-hastings/535... [2] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/may/22/white-house-drone-strikes-us-citizens http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/may/22/white-house-dro...

pliny 13y ago
When comparing things (the US is one of the most amazing places in the world -> the US is amazing in comparison to most places) it's usually more important to focus on differences rather than similarities. State-sponsored slaughter of innocent people in the Middle East and Africa is a pastime enthusiastically practiced by Canada and all of the "important" European nations (UK, Germany, France, and to a lesser extent Scandinavians) not just by the US.
- ghshephard 13y ago
  Could I get a Citation on Canada slaughtering innocent people in both the Middle East and Africa? I wasn't aware they had a deployed army large enough to be involved in "slaughtering" - and I know they declined to support the United States Incursion into Iraq - So I'm wondering where you are going with this...
  - Aloha 13y ago
    Canada has been a willing participant in Afghanistan[1] and as complicit as most of the world is in relations with Saudi Arabia.[2] While complicitness is not the same a direct action, it furthers the argument that I wish to make - in international relations, there is no such thing as clean hands. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada's_role_in_the_Afghanistan_War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada's_role_in_the_Afghanista... - [2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada%E2%80%93Saudi_Arabia_relations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada%E2%80%93Saudi_Arabia_rel...

the_af 13y ago

Without diminishing what you say, it happens in other democratic countries as well. In many Latin American universities (and even lower education) the students are a force to be reckoned with. For example, in recent years a student coalition demonstrated against the education policies of former president of Chile, Sebastián Piñera, and it was a major crisis. Similar demonstrations can happen against, for example, the principal of a university or school in other countries. The students protest even when they risk being expelled. The US seems mild in comparison...

superpatosainz 13y ago
Not to be pedantic, but Piñera at this very moment is still governing and Michelle Bachelet has not taken his post yet.
- the_af 13y ago
  True! I forgot he wasn't out yet (I'm not from Chile).
dnautics 13y ago
Not to say that group action is bad, part of the point of the top comment is that this is an individual action, and it would be relatively easy to bring the hammer of authority down on this one person, which is a distinguishing factor here. Moreover, (and possibly easier because it's a single indvidual) the ethical rationale are listed in a declaratory form, which is not always the case in mass student actions.

bane 13y ago

People are varied just about everywhere. I've also spent a bit of time overseas and one attitude I rarely find and sometimes miss is the American style rock-n-roll fuck authority I'm gonna do what I want attitude. There are similar attitudes elsewhere, but they're a bit different than the American one. And I agree, in Asia, it's very absent. I used to be surprised when I'd see an interview with some very hard rock band in Asia and they'd spend the interview quietly bowing and talking more or less like the proper primped pop-idol they just had on. It felt like the rock image was just a costume rather than being the free spirit of the person coming out. I've seen so many occasions in Asia where a situation called for an American style go fuck yourself response and it never appeared. I think a great many of the social ills you find in Confucian countries could be resolved with a sprinkle of American style rock and roll. You're right though, taking that kind of life approach in Asia can be a life destroyer. In America there's enough of a critical mass of people who have and understand that kind of approach to life, and accept it in others, that you can be that way and find enough of a support network to still live a good life. Europeans, in my observation, have a different kind of attitude. It's more of a fuck the old guard, fuck the status quo attitude that's probably informed by the last couple hundred years of European history. It can take on many of the same kinds of symbols and stylings as the American rock n roll way, but I think it has different goals and expected outcomes. I also agree that the American attitude, while good for some things, can become boring and tiresome when it turns into stupid contrariness for the sake of being oppositional.

Jare 13y ago
If I had to summarize European vs NAmerican, I'd say European is more group-based whereas in the USA it's almost always about the individual (even group protests feel more like a lot of individuals than a single group). Anecdotally, as an European, I can say that I always have a gut feeling of distrust when I meet someone very charismatic or who clearly loves going at things alone.

higherpurpose 13y ago

Now if only US can maintain that. The trend is certainly not in its favor. Corrupt media who doesn't tend to cover stuff that truly hurt the government's power, the rise of the police/SWAT state, the rise of the surveillance state, the upcoming conflict over what drones can or can not do in US, and so on.

Gracana 13y ago

> It's just standard being-an-American stuff. [...] it's really cool that it's a regular, run of the mill occurrence for people to push back against norms and restrictions in American society without any fear of long-term repercussions. It's standard privileged American stuff. It's great that this guy can push back, but try being a Spanish-speaking factory temp trying to push back and get proper training and safety equipment, or try being a waitress at a bar trying to push back against harassing customers and mistreatment from management. Some people's lives depend on buckling under; they don't get to do the pushing because they will lose their jobs.

jcc80 13y ago
Please don't pollute this thread with the social justice warrior stuff. The student could be punished and people that don't speak English or want a different waitressing job aren't helpless.
- eropple 13y ago
  An understanding that social position gives you power and options that others without your advantages of birth may lack is not "social justice warrior" stuff, it's basic sense.
  - jcc80 13y ago
    I'm not familiar with Sean Haufler's "advantages of birth". If you are familiar with him and his family, and feel it would be appropriate to this discussion, then have at it I guess.
    - eropple 13y ago
      He got into Yale and you're wondering what advantages he has? Let's set aside for a second the high-end schools' tendency towards legacy admissions, which clearly isn't going to be biased towards the children of the upper class who are certainly not predominantly white and loaded (that smell is not the dog, folks, it's sarcasm). Have you seen the demographics of Yale[1]? Even just racial demographics put WTFs to this[2]. 7% of Yale students are black--16% of Americans born between 1992 and 1996 are black (and overwhelmingly poor). 9% of Yale students are Hispanic. 14% of Americans born between 1992 and 1996 are Hispanic (and are comparatively only often poor). Does that seem like it makes sense to you if certain populations weren't getting advantages based on external factors? "They pick the best" often comes up as a possibility to answer that. Because they sort of do, social signaling aside (and Haufler is white and male so he's a few rungs up that ladder too). But isn't it funny how "the best" generally also correlates to "white or Asian and rich"? SAT scores against income[3] are pretty indicative; SAT against racial demographics[also 3] likewise. This is not hard: non-Asian minorities are overwhelmingly more likely to be really-goddam-poor than whites and Asians and are much more likely to score like shit on the signaling tests that are your ticket to the upper-crust-signaling environment of a Yale. (And, as mentioned, even poor whites are more likely to have the social signals that are attractive to groups that select for "their type of people"--like, you know, most societal gatekeepers.) The conflation of economic and social advantages what makes these people privileged. Crack babies don't get into Yale[4]. Children of illegal immigrants don't get into Yale. People who grow up in extreme poverty don't get into Yale. That doesn't make people who get into Yale bad but it does mean that they have advantages that need to be recognized over the girl who didn't get the opportunity to learn English or the guy who didn't get the opportunity to grow up in a safe environment where school was valued. Or, y'know, their kids when it's their turn to not be even remotely close to the "right stuff" for Yale. And this is what the guy you dismissively shat on for no good reason understands: that it's important for us, as people with incredible luck and massive advantages, aware that no, not everyone has these advantages, and so it behooves us to do right by them, too. What Haufler did is cool and it sucks that his amazingly selective private school got frowny at a student for a similar project, but as injustices go, this shit's pretty small--if he's of a mind to, he's gonna walk out of college into a job making no less than the eighty-eighth percentile of individual income in this country[5]. Having your kids be nearly guaranteed to do no better, and probably worse, than you did, in a system designed to keep you where you are? That's pretty big. That's what he's saying. That's what's actually important. -- [1] http://oir.yale.edu/yale-factsheet http://oir.yale.edu/yale-factsheet [2] http://www.childstats.gov/americaschildren/tables/pop3.asp http://www.childstats.gov/americaschildren/tables/pop3.asp [3] http://domesatreview.com/content/sat-test-demographics-income-and-ethnicity http://domesatreview.com/content/sat-test-demographics-incom... [4] Oh please please please be the person who thinks two counterexamples invalidate statistics please please please it's been too long. Please and thank you. [5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States#Income_distribution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_S...

RivieraKid 13y ago

> It's just standard being-an-American stuff. This kind behavior is probably more typical in the US than in Asia, but even more so in, let's say, France or the UK. I would say that many European countries have more individualism and freedom of expression than the US.