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>Assume you can't take the government's word on what is corruption. That is a big assumption. The Chinese government is very flawed, but you are wrong in assu

>Assume you can't take the government's word on what is corruption. That is a big assumption. The Chinese government is very flawed, but you are wrong in assuming that they would define corruption in a completely arbitrary manner. They would most likely (as they have done already) make an example of the worst, most clear cut, cases.

vinceguidry 13y ago
I would appreciate an elaboration on why you would give their government the benefit of the doubt on this, when literally every other socialist/communist government on the planet has waged class war through kangaroo court under the guise of 'fighting corruption'?
- snogglethorpe 13y ago
  It's abundantly clear that there's a lot of corruption in China, often involving government officials or those with connections to the government, and much of it really obvious. The Chinese government hasn't generally cracked down because they were feeling virtuous, but because their hand was forced (corruption was revealed independently), and they feared social discontent more than they feared upsetting the gravy train. It's certainly believable that they would sometimes use "corruption" as an excuse to persecute those they don't like for political and other reasons -- but they can't just ignore every case of true corruption, especially obvious ones, because they don't want to risk real public unrest.
- philwelch 13y ago
  China doesn't have a socialist/communist government, they have a technocratic oligarchy that rules via something that calls itself "the communist party".
  - vinceguidry 13y ago
    That's what a socialist / communist government is, a technocratic oligarchy.
    - philwelch 13y ago
      The form of government is the same, but the Chinese don't appear to follow the same communist ideology that every other communist government did in the 20th century, or indeed the same ideology that they themselves followed from Mao to Deng. You hear about "democratic socialism", which is a democratic government that implements socialist policies. China has the opposite: a communist government that implements capitalist policies. Considering the abject failure of 20th century Soviet-style communism, it's not a foregone conclusion that the Chinese will follow that example.
- reuven 13y ago
  Yes, one of the problems with China seems not only to be that the party is corrupt, and encourages corruption, but that it is immune from investigation and punishment. I read a book this summer about the Chinese Communist Party (http://www.amazon.com/The-Party-Secret-Chinas-Communist/dp/0061708771 http://www.amazon.com/The-Party-Secret-Chinas-Communist/dp/0...), and was rather surprised to find that the party exists outside of the Chinese legal system. So there's this entire apparatus that cannot, under Chinese law, be investigated, sued, or otherwise held accountable. I think that it's somewhat inevitable that power without accountability will lead to massive corruption -- all the more so when you're dealing with a country as immense as China, which has accumulated such wealth in recent years. I find it easy to believe that some wealthy Chinese, unsure of when the party (so to speak) will be over, and when they might be accused (rightfully or not) of corruption, just decide to leave.

vinceguidry 13y ago

I would appreciate an elaboration on why you would give their government the benefit of the doubt on this, when literally every other socialist/communist government on the planet has waged class war through kangaroo court under the guise of 'fighting corruption'?

snogglethorpe 13y ago
It's abundantly clear that there's a lot of corruption in China, often involving government officials or those with connections to the government, and much of it really obvious. The Chinese government hasn't generally cracked down because they were feeling virtuous, but because their hand was forced (corruption was revealed independently), and they feared social discontent more than they feared upsetting the gravy train. It's certainly believable that they would sometimes use "corruption" as an excuse to persecute those they don't like for political and other reasons -- but they can't just ignore every case of true corruption, especially obvious ones, because they don't want to risk real public unrest.
philwelch 13y ago
China doesn't have a socialist/communist government, they have a technocratic oligarchy that rules via something that calls itself "the communist party".
- vinceguidry 13y ago
  That's what a socialist / communist government is, a technocratic oligarchy.
  - philwelch 13y ago
    The form of government is the same, but the Chinese don't appear to follow the same communist ideology that every other communist government did in the 20th century, or indeed the same ideology that they themselves followed from Mao to Deng. You hear about "democratic socialism", which is a democratic government that implements socialist policies. China has the opposite: a communist government that implements capitalist policies. Considering the abject failure of 20th century Soviet-style communism, it's not a foregone conclusion that the Chinese will follow that example.
reuven 13y ago
Yes, one of the problems with China seems not only to be that the party is corrupt, and encourages corruption, but that it is immune from investigation and punishment. I read a book this summer about the Chinese Communist Party (http://www.amazon.com/The-Party-Secret-Chinas-Communist/dp/0061708771 http://www.amazon.com/The-Party-Secret-Chinas-Communist/dp/0...), and was rather surprised to find that the party exists outside of the Chinese legal system. So there's this entire apparatus that cannot, under Chinese law, be investigated, sued, or otherwise held accountable. I think that it's somewhat inevitable that power without accountability will lead to massive corruption -- all the more so when you're dealing with a country as immense as China, which has accumulated such wealth in recent years. I find it easy to believe that some wealthy Chinese, unsure of when the party (so to speak) will be over, and when they might be accused (rightfully or not) of corruption, just decide to leave.