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Ignoring ethics for a moment (heh), one has to consider the ramifications a pardon such as that would send. That's tacit endorsement from the president of the

Ignoring ethics for a moment (heh), one has to consider the ramifications a pardon such as that would send. That's tacit endorsement from the president of the US for everyone who thinks wrongdoings are going on to come out and tell the world, regardless of the chain-of-command, regardless of any oaths these people have taken - it's basically carte blanch permission for people in the government to start leaking privileged information. I can't think of a way to pardon Snowden without sending that kind of message - you can't say, "Only do this if you're really sure what's happening is super bad." So yeah, he could pardon Snowden, but the consequences could be ruinous to the US, even if it is "The Right Thing" to do.

lostcolony 13y ago
Right. Much better to send the message that even if the disclosure proves warranted, even if we end up agreeing that reforms are needed, even if it's clear that the 'appropriate channels' are broken, if you disclose we'll hound and pursue you to the ends of the earth. /sarcasm Ellsberg's leaking of the Pentagon Papers led to charges, that were later dropped, and we didn't see some huge number of whistleblowers. So I assert your claim is a poor one. History has not shown that granting a pardon to a whistleblower has led to inappropriate leaking, and the chilling effect of not doing it when appropriate (or deciding it's not appropriate when it clearly was, such as now), is not worth the trade off.
- diminoten 13y ago
  I don't think history can help us here, as 1960/1970 was a fundamentally different time than now. It's infinitely easier to proliferate information to the population, and there are no barriers to doing so now, whereas the newspapers were gatekeepers of public dissemination when Ellsberg did what he did.
  - moocowduckquack 13y ago
    the newspapers were gatekeepers of public dissemination when Ellsberg did what he did They are still in the Snowden case as well. Also, to declare that history cannot help in the analysis of a problem in the present is to admit defeat. To fully understand the present, the only real tool you have is history.
dragonwriter 13y ago
> it's basically carte blanch permission for people in the government to start leaking privileged information. No, a pardon received by one person is not a promise of pardons to anyone else. A pardon is an exception, not a rule.
- diminoten 13y ago
  People will still think they're going to get pardoned, even if you're right and it's just "an exception".
  - panacea 13y ago
    Yeah, it would suck to send potential whistleblowers the message that it's "OK" to reveal governmental abuse.
- mpyne 13y ago
  The concern is with precedence, and the idea that sets in that some types of classified data leaks are "more equal" than others. Lynching of black people in the Jim Crow South were often attributed officially to "unknown parties of a mob" even when there was clear photographic evidence of white ringleaders. White murderers knew that the fiction of official non-recognition was not a rule, yet the reality of the precedent thus set led to many other mob lynchings. All of this is to say that even though a pardon is not a rule and should be recognized as such, that only helps matters if every potential future leaker sees it as an exception and not a new precedent.
  - dragonwriter 13y ago
    > The concern is with precedence, and the idea that sets in that some types of classified data leaks are "more equal" than others. Some types of classified data leaks are more equal than others. The same is true of violations of any criminal law. That's why the pardon power exists (and, in part, why jury nullification is important) -- because no law can ever perfectly account for all edge cases. > Lynching of black people in the Jim Crow South were often attributed officially to "unknown parties of a mob" even when there was clear photographic evidence of white ringleaders. That repeated pattern of false portrayals to put a public face on a decision not to prosecute is very different than a pardon that does not deny that a crime was committed, and does not falsely assert ambiguity in the identity of the responsible party, etc.
ellisd 13y ago
President Regan pardoned Mark Felt, aka Deep Throat. It can be done, just not in the era of 'Hope and Change™' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Felt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Felt
PythonicAlpha 13y ago
But other people (in some federal organisations) where pardoned for tormenting people and other felonies. So, as your statement holds: In the US tormenting and breaking basic human rights will be tolerated also in the future? The US gov. is applying double standards. Seems to be widespread today in so called "free western countries".
fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
>...it's basically carte blanch permission for people in the government to start leaking privileged information. The thing that government can do to prevent that from occurring is to demonstrate actual whistleblower protection schemes, and correct flaws when exposed. edited grammar
jsmcgd 13y ago
Just to be clear, he took an oath to defend the constitution and he appears to be one of very few people actually doing that.
- saraid216 13y ago
  You mean Snowden? When did he take this oath?

lostcolony 13y ago

Right. Much better to send the message that even if the disclosure proves warranted, even if we end up agreeing that reforms are needed, even if it's clear that the 'appropriate channels' are broken, if you disclose we'll hound and pursue you to the ends of the earth. /sarcasm Ellsberg's leaking of the Pentagon Papers led to charges, that were later dropped, and we didn't see some huge number of whistleblowers. So I assert your claim is a poor one. History has not shown that granting a pardon to a whistleblower has led to inappropriate leaking, and the chilling effect of not doing it when appropriate (or deciding it's not appropriate when it clearly was, such as now), is not worth the trade off.

diminoten 13y ago
I don't think history can help us here, as 1960/1970 was a fundamentally different time than now. It's infinitely easier to proliferate information to the population, and there are no barriers to doing so now, whereas the newspapers were gatekeepers of public dissemination when Ellsberg did what he did.
- moocowduckquack 13y ago
  the newspapers were gatekeepers of public dissemination when Ellsberg did what he did They are still in the Snowden case as well. Also, to declare that history cannot help in the analysis of a problem in the present is to admit defeat. To fully understand the present, the only real tool you have is history.

dragonwriter 13y ago

> it's basically carte blanch permission for people in the government to start leaking privileged information. No, a pardon received by one person is not a promise of pardons to anyone else. A pardon is an exception, not a rule.

diminoten 13y ago
People will still think they're going to get pardoned, even if you're right and it's just "an exception".
- panacea 13y ago
  Yeah, it would suck to send potential whistleblowers the message that it's "OK" to reveal governmental abuse.
mpyne 13y ago
The concern is with precedence, and the idea that sets in that some types of classified data leaks are "more equal" than others. Lynching of black people in the Jim Crow South were often attributed officially to "unknown parties of a mob" even when there was clear photographic evidence of white ringleaders. White murderers knew that the fiction of official non-recognition was not a rule, yet the reality of the precedent thus set led to many other mob lynchings. All of this is to say that even though a pardon is not a rule and should be recognized as such, that only helps matters if every potential future leaker sees it as an exception and not a new precedent.
- dragonwriter 13y ago
  > The concern is with precedence, and the idea that sets in that some types of classified data leaks are "more equal" than others. Some types of classified data leaks are more equal than others. The same is true of violations of any criminal law. That's why the pardon power exists (and, in part, why jury nullification is important) -- because no law can ever perfectly account for all edge cases. > Lynching of black people in the Jim Crow South were often attributed officially to "unknown parties of a mob" even when there was clear photographic evidence of white ringleaders. That repeated pattern of false portrayals to put a public face on a decision not to prosecute is very different than a pardon that does not deny that a crime was committed, and does not falsely assert ambiguity in the identity of the responsible party, etc.

ellisd 13y ago

President Regan pardoned Mark Felt, aka Deep Throat. It can be done, just not in the era of 'Hope and Change™' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Felt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Felt

PythonicAlpha 13y ago

But other people (in some federal organisations) where pardoned for tormenting people and other felonies. So, as your statement holds: In the US tormenting and breaking basic human rights will be tolerated also in the future? The US gov. is applying double standards. Seems to be widespread today in so called "free western countries".

fnordfnordfnord 13y ago

>...it's basically carte blanch permission for people in the government to start leaking privileged information. The thing that government can do to prevent that from occurring is to demonstrate actual whistleblower protection schemes, and correct flaws when exposed. edited grammar

jsmcgd 13y ago

Just to be clear, he took an oath to defend the constitution and he appears to be one of very few people actually doing that.

saraid216 13y ago
You mean Snowden? When did he take this oath?