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Ukrainian Protesters Hold Up Mirrors to Police
- aaronem 13y ago> You can imagine what was going through their minds as they saw themselves in their ridiculous garb and dehumanized condition. "At least they're not throwing things." Somewhat related, I'm curious about the veracity of a "news item" for which the second Google result is a blog [1] whose header includes a lengthy quote from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and which appears largely to have been promulgated by a charming [2] fellow who goes by the handle "Red Pill Philosophy", and seems mostly to concern himself with blaming society for his romantic and sexual failure. [1] http://vaticproject.blogspot.com/2014/01/ukrainian-protesters-hold-up-mirrors-to.html http://vaticproject.blogspot.com/2014/01/ukrainian-protester... [2] http://redpillphilosophy.com http://redpillphilosophy.com
- moocowduckquack 13y agoI agree that it is a really crappy source. News orgainsations are also following this however. http://www.channel4.com/news/ukraine-protests-smoke-and-mirrors-in-kiev-eu-russia http://www.channel4.com/news/ukraine-protests-smoke-and-mirr...
- easy_rider 13y agoThey all seem to have a great time, maybe it is working!
- ris 13y agoYes, it could have done without the Dave Spart-esque video.
- nmc 13y agoWhat happens when they start fighting, and the mirrors break into sharp pieces of glass?
- densh 13y agoUnfortunately public protests are soon going to become illegal in Ukraine as the president have just signed a set of laws the basically turns the country into police state [1] [2] [1] http://citizenjournal.info/?id=14710 http://citizenjournal.info/?id=14710 [2] http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/welcome-to-little-russia-335065.html http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/welcome-to-little-russ...
- ffrryuu 13y agoNah, it's a privilege not a right. /sarc Driving a car is a right.
- philwelch 13y agoI guess the "Orange Revolution" didn't work out in the long run.
- Mikeb85 13y agoNot really. The 'heroes' of the Orange Revolution turned against each other (see Yushchenko vs Tymoshenko drama) , raided the country's coffers, ruined its economy, and lost badly in the most recent elections.
- philwelch 13y agoMeet the new boss, same as the old boss.
- geoka9 13y agoWell... The new one is not exactly the same. He's a former felon with multiple convictions for violent crimes who, judging by the people he installed in key positions all over the country, still has connections with the organized crime. Makes quite a difference.
- easy_rider 13y agoThey probably pose in front of mirrors anyway. I know I would if I had such awesome gear.
- gadders 13y ago"Look at me! I'm totally Judge Dredd."
- easy_rider 13y agoExactly. I'm grateful that I don't get downvoted for the comment btw. But sorry, this lacks any news or intellectual value whatsoever. Now if a study would emerge that mirrors as a reflective tool are a proven deterrent of riot police, this would incite some nice debates about the human psyche. I don't want to listen to some guy with dirty undies hanging on his bedpost talking about the "evil black riot police" and how they get schooled with grandma's with mirrors. The hippies used to do this with flowers in the 60's. That is a long time ago. Is it true that riot police is getting more violent or aggressive in nature? Or could it be that those helmets and shields are there to protect them from cranial bleeding.
- moocowduckquack 13y agoa study would emerge that mirrors as a reflective tool are a proven deterrent of riot police That seems to be a rather high bar to set for a rather poetic act. I take it you also do not trust parachutes. As with many interventions intended to prevent ill health, the effectiveness of parachutes has not been subjected to rigorous evaluation by using randomised controlled trials. Advocates of evidence based medicine have criticised the adoption of interventions evaluated by using only observational data. We think that everyone might benefit if the most radical protagonists of evidence based medicine organised and participated in a double blind, randomised, placebo controlled, crossover trial of the parachute. http://www.bmj.com/content/327/7429/1459 http://www.bmj.com/content/327/7429/1459
- easy_rider 13y ago
- nailer 13y agoAgreed with the points about making the officers consider their actions, but also: it's also very hard to strike at one's own image.
- eliasmacpherson 13y agoor cover a grandmother in shards of glass.
- rurounijones 13y agoThat is a beautiful idea and sentiment. Well done Ukranian protesters.
- joyeuse6701 13y agoI like the idea, there's a lot of thought provocation in it. Having said that, I don't like how the article belittles the riot police force. Aren't the older generation (grandma) at least partly responsible for the state in which their kids (riot police) are in? It's not like these 'thugs' were created in a vacuum and that these 'grandma's' are helpless. They were young, and they made decisions...more likely to have more effect on what the current state is than the men in uniform ironically.
- MrZongle2 13y agoNot sure why you were downvoted. The hippies and love-children and down-with-the-man types of the 60s and 70s have been in power for the last quarter century. They have shaped the world as they collectively see fit, and it's not that different from the one they protested against.
- moocowduckquack 13y agoThe hippies and love-children and down-with-the-man types of the 60s and 70s have been in power for the last quarter century. In the Ukraine? Are you completely mental?
- jedmeyers 13y agoThere is no "the" in Ukraine.
- moocowduckquack 13y agoThere used to be. I didn't realise till I just looked it up ( http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/ukraine.html http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/ukraine.html ) that they had officially dropped the 'the' after 1990, I thought either was correct.
- Mikeb85 13y agoWhile this is true, the word 'Ukraine' comes from a Slavic word for 'border' or 'region', so using 'the' in front of it makes sense when you consider the original meaning of the name and how English is spoken. All my Canadian-Ukrainian relatives say 'the Ukraine', even though as the proper name of a country you should just say 'Ukraine'.
- Mikeb85 13y agoOne thing to keep in mind about Ukraine, is that over half the country speaks Russian, and are very firmly pro-Russian. Furthermore, the current government was democratically elected (there were even western observers who confirmed the fairness of the most recent elections), after years of in-fighting amongst the 'Orange Revolution' crowd. The protests also happen to be timed ahead of elections, no doubt in part because the pro-West factions were so divided they really had no chance against the Party of Regions (which enjoys widespread support in the eastern parts of the country).
- free652 13y agoI wouldn't say that Russian speaking Ukrainians are "firmly" pro-Russian, I'd say its far from the truth. Where did you get that notion? At least not in Odessa. Most people just want to have better lives. But their lives got worse with every year.
- new_test 13y agoI grew up in south eastern Ukraine (as Russian as Ukraine gets). I'm still in touch with some of my childhood friends, and the views are pretty split in my hometown. One friend that I went to school with always posts all kinds of pro-Europe anti-Yanukovich petitions online. At the same time I just received an email from another friend this morning and his opinion is "Those fucking protesters are turning Kiev into shit, good thing we don't have that in our town. We did have some but they got shit thrown at them [literally what he said], so they sit at home now." Basically his opinion is that it's western governments trying to manipulate Ukrainians.
- Mikeb85 13y ago> I wouldn't say that Russian speaking Ukrainians are "firmly" pro-Russian, I'd say its far from the truth. Maybe not the best wording. While there is no doubt dissatisfaction with political and daily realities, most Ukrainians, certainly all the ones I know, still feel closer culturally to Russia than to the West. Russian-ness and Ukrainian-ness aren't dictated by politics which are continually changing... > Most people just want to have better lives. But their lives got worse with every year. This is an issue in every country. Right now in half of the EU peoples' lives are getting worse (Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece, Cyprus, etc...). There are certainly world-wide economic variables at play, but there's also the issue that some pro-West agents try to hold the country hostage every few years... Russia bailed out Ukraine, and pretty much continually props up its economy. Look what the EU did to Greece and Cyprus...
- hawkharris 13y agoThis raises a complicated question: assuming that the SWAT members are part of an immoral cause — not necessarily true, but let's assume it — should we blame the SWAT members...or the policymakers who command them to the front lines? The same can be said for U.S. soldiers who volunteer to fight in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Maybe they were unaware of the thousands of civilian deaths that would occur as a result of the American occupation of those countries. Maybe they were swept into a whirlwind, powerless to prevent those casualties, because of policymakers. I expect that this will be a very unpopular statement, but maybe holding those on the front lines (e.g. soldiers and SWAT members) accountable will help create pressure against immoral government crackdowns. Maybe we should be critical of both those on the front lines and those making the strategic decisions.
- masklinn 13y ago> This raises a complicated question: assuming that the SWAT members are part of an immoral cause — not necessarily true, but let's assume it — should we blame the SWAT members...or the policymakers who command them to the front lines? Going with military rules and Nuremberg precedents, likely both. Command responsibility doctrine makes superiors responsible for the crimes of their troops (let alone for their own unlawful orders) and superior orders defences started falling after WWII, especially during the Nuremberg trials: > The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him. the 1998 Rome statute tends to confirm, although a superior order defence may still work under it: > 1. The fact that a crime within the jurisdiction of the Court has been committed by a person pursuant to an order of a Government or of a superior, whether military or civilian, shall not relieve that person of criminal responsibility unless: > (a) The person was under a legal obligation to obey orders of the Government or the superior in question; > (b) The person did not know that the order was unlawful; and > (c) The order was not manifestly unlawful. Superiors ought be held accountable either way, boots can escape if they demonstrate that the order was not manifestly unlawful.
- scarecrowbob 13y agoJust anecdotally, most of the folks my age who joined the military did so not out of a sense of duty, but strictly to better their chances, for the same reason they might go to college. I don't have a lot of respect for that particular decision, and that is not a popular sentiment where I live. I believe that mercenaries, which is more or less what they are, are morally culpable. But I, too, made bad decisions when I was 20, and it's even cloudier when there are a lot of folks telling you that you're making a good decision and that the nay sayers are basically cowardly traitors. That said, I don't know how useful it is to attack the problem from that direction; between the entrenched fantasies about how legitimate that violence is and the real social and economic circumstances that push people into those kinds of decisions. There is plenty of blame to go around, if we are okay saying that this use of force is in fact immoral, but in my opinion it doesn't do a lot of good to blame anyone, beyond analysis... all we can really do is look at what we ourselves are doing and decide what we change directly or in concert with our fellow travelers.
- bonemachine 13y agoAh, how I envy the freedom available to political protestors in the former Soviet Union. In NYC (during the Occupy days), those mirrors would have been swiftly confiscated as "potential weapons."
- Mikeb85 13y agoBy the way, this might have something to do with the new laws: http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-protesters-charge-police-lines-tractor-eyewitnesses-123627644.html http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-protesters-charge-police-lines...