7 ms·

I am a Korean. I don't think describing one as risk-averse is fair when risk is different. When A and B are given the same risk, and A takes the risk and B doe

by sanxiyn 13y ago

I am a Korean. I don't think describing one as risk-averse is fair when risk is different. When A and B are given the same risk, and A takes the risk and B doesn't, it is fair to describe B as more risk-averse than A. When A and B are given the different risk, and A takes the risk and B doesn't, it doesn't tell much about B's risk-averseness. I think it is not that Japanese culture is risk-averse, but that doing startup in Japan is actually more risky. These two are not the same statement. I also call bullshit on "lack of disruptive ideas". How can one even imagine such thing is true is beyond me.

onion2k 13y ago
What makes it more risky to do a start-up in Japan?
- sanxiyn 13y ago
  Go read http://www.futurealoof.com/posts/the-san-francisco-safety-net.html http://www.futurealoof.com/posts/the-san-francisco-safety-ne...
  - mildtrepidation 13y ago
    The US is not San Francisco, and this is an opinion piece that doesn't really say anything interesting about the comparison you're making. I agree with you that it's riskier, but this link is not what I'd call particularly compelling with respect to your point.
    - sanxiyn 13y ago
      When people talk of startup culture divide between US and Japan, by US, they mean San Francisco. US does not have a uniform startup culture over its territory, does it?
      - sp332 13y ago
        Startups are concentrated in SF, but the culture isn't hugely different between SF, NYC, Houston, etc.
- patio11 13y ago
  Pretend you live in an alternate universe America where the following is true: Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Amazon, Apple, and substantially every other company you want to work for has an elite class of employees. They get a salary and they're mostly men, so let's call them salarymen. Salarymen are hired right out of undergraduate, almost exclusively. In fact, it is so rare to have someone hired mid-career that an e.g. product manager who managed that would probably rate an article in TechCrunch. There is a large culture built around salarymanhood, but distilling it to the essence, it is loyalty above and below. Above, your company affords you job security comparable to that enjoyed by tenured academics or career civil servants. Below, there is only one thing you must never, ever, ever do: quit. If you stab a company in the back by quitting after they've given you the brass ring of salarymanhood, that is a worse black mark on your future employment prospects than being convicted of embezzlement. Americans don't worry about credit reports. The only FICO score in our alternate universe is the name on your business card: if you belong to the elite fraternity of first-class corporations -- much like first-class colleges, there are wonks who keep lists but realistically you could ask any twelve year old and they'd know -- you have sufficient credit to receive loans or to rent apartments. If you don't, you will need to have someone who does cosign for you if you want to e.g. live in an apartment. There exist companies which will basically sell you "I am not a salaryman but I have a surety bond so please let me stay in your building" insurance. This costs several hundred dollars a year. People in the United States love the institution of marriage, and having a good match is considered to be crucial to life happiness, particularly for women. Women largely prefer to marry salarymen, because salarymen mean material stability. Their parents, whose advice women frequently listen to, are virtually universal in preferring this. This is not simply an aesthetic preference like "women prefer men who are tall." Women do prefer men who are tall, but you will not be asked to provide a copy of your last physical attesting to your height when meeting your bride-to-be's parents to discuss your intention to marry her. You should, however, pack your resume [+]. America has a very low bankruptcy rate, principally because it is treated as a social sin somewhere between notoriously cheating on one's spouse or doing something really dastardly like backstabbing a company by quitting it. If you go bankrupt, you will lose friends, and your employment opportunities will be circumscribed in a manner similar to being on a blacklist. (Someone from a foreign country might wonder what happens to a salaryman who goes bankrupt. What a silly question. Americans of proper breeding and with the educational attainment and moral worth to become salarymen would simply never go bankrupt. And if, through some strange combination of unavoidable circumstances, they were threatened with financial ruin, the company would certainly take care of that.) You presided over a corporate bankruptcy? Oh dear. That's even worse than a personal bankruptcy. Not only did you fail personally, you ruined the lives of people to whom you owed society's highest form of loyalty. Hopefully your children will be able to pay off your accumulated debts, you disgraceful excuse for an American. Foreigners, like those plucky Japanese, occasionally describe Americans as plodding clock-punchers without a risk taking bone in their bodies. They just don't get it. Americans love successful entrepreneurs like they love miracles -- sure, most of them happened in ages past, and you'd be absolutely insane to stake your life on one in the present day, but people still tell stories about them. [+] I am very rarely believed when I say this, but it is literally accurate that I had my resume and a stamped copy of my most recent tax return the first time I met Ruriko's mother. I'll elide the specifics of the conversation, because after all she is my mother-in-law, but suffice it to say I was able to bring her around regarding my proposal despite my uncertain employment prospects.
mildtrepidation 13y ago
I think it is not that Japanese culture is risk-averse, but that doing startup in Japan is actually more risky. These two are not the same statement. No, they're not the same; however, I think both are largely true Japan. The culture is risk-averse in that no one wants to be wrong or different, or to be labeled wrong or different, to the extent that their reliance on consensus and avoidance of commitment and confrontation can fairly be called risk aversion. Part of the risk of attempting a startup in Japan is that it marks you as a nonconformist, particularly in terms of your employment history. The drastically reduced chances of finding stable employment if you spend any time outside of the corporate world during your working life very reasonably feed risk aversion.
pjan 13y ago
Based in Japan here. First, I don't think the author claims that the risk is the same; quite the opposite IMO. He clearly states that getting a high exit is very difficult here, that sales cycles are longer, ... which, all the same, make for a higher risk. It's however the task of the entrepreneur to take this into account and be successful within this frame. Having said that, it is an undeniable fact that, in general, Japanese are culturally more risk-averse. Case in point are for example the low seed rounds that can be raised amongst the Japanese investors (i.e. VC not being an entrepreneurial endeavour), the popularity of the idea of life-long employment, ... "lack of disruptive ideas" actually does ring with me, at least when it comes to web-based companies. "Unique ideas", no doubt about that. But disruptive ideas as 1) having a major impact, 2) being viable, and 3) not a localised clone of a successful foreign company... I do challenge you to name me some.
jcl 13y ago
To the author's credit, the article consistently says that "Japanese culture" is risk-averse, not that "Japanese" are risk-averse. If you have two cultures A and B, and A has rules or conventions that reward risky behavior more than B, then I think it's fair to describe culture A as more risk-tolerant and culture B as more risk-averse.

by sanxiyn 13y ago

onion2k 13y ago

What makes it more risky to do a start-up in Japan?

sanxiyn 13y ago
Go read http://www.futurealoof.com/posts/the-san-francisco-safety-net.html http://www.futurealoof.com/posts/the-san-francisco-safety-ne...
- mildtrepidation 13y ago
  The US is not San Francisco, and this is an opinion piece that doesn't really say anything interesting about the comparison you're making. I agree with you that it's riskier, but this link is not what I'd call particularly compelling with respect to your point.
  - sanxiyn 13y ago
    When people talk of startup culture divide between US and Japan, by US, they mean San Francisco. US does not have a uniform startup culture over its territory, does it?
    - sp332 13y ago
      Startups are concentrated in SF, but the culture isn't hugely different between SF, NYC, Houston, etc.
patio11 13y ago
Pretend you live in an alternate universe America where the following is true: Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Amazon, Apple, and substantially every other company you want to work for has an elite class of employees. They get a salary and they're mostly men, so let's call them salarymen. Salarymen are hired right out of undergraduate, almost exclusively. In fact, it is so rare to have someone hired mid-career that an e.g. product manager who managed that would probably rate an article in TechCrunch. There is a large culture built around salarymanhood, but distilling it to the essence, it is loyalty above and below. Above, your company affords you job security comparable to that enjoyed by tenured academics or career civil servants. Below, there is only one thing you must never, ever, ever do: quit. If you stab a company in the back by quitting after they've given you the brass ring of salarymanhood, that is a worse black mark on your future employment prospects than being convicted of embezzlement. Americans don't worry about credit reports. The only FICO score in our alternate universe is the name on your business card: if you belong to the elite fraternity of first-class corporations -- much like first-class colleges, there are wonks who keep lists but realistically you could ask any twelve year old and they'd know -- you have sufficient credit to receive loans or to rent apartments. If you don't, you will need to have someone who does cosign for you if you want to e.g. live in an apartment. There exist companies which will basically sell you "I am not a salaryman but I have a surety bond so please let me stay in your building" insurance. This costs several hundred dollars a year. People in the United States love the institution of marriage, and having a good match is considered to be crucial to life happiness, particularly for women. Women largely prefer to marry salarymen, because salarymen mean material stability. Their parents, whose advice women frequently listen to, are virtually universal in preferring this. This is not simply an aesthetic preference like "women prefer men who are tall." Women do prefer men who are tall, but you will not be asked to provide a copy of your last physical attesting to your height when meeting your bride-to-be's parents to discuss your intention to marry her. You should, however, pack your resume [+]. America has a very low bankruptcy rate, principally because it is treated as a social sin somewhere between notoriously cheating on one's spouse or doing something really dastardly like backstabbing a company by quitting it. If you go bankrupt, you will lose friends, and your employment opportunities will be circumscribed in a manner similar to being on a blacklist. (Someone from a foreign country might wonder what happens to a salaryman who goes bankrupt. What a silly question. Americans of proper breeding and with the educational attainment and moral worth to become salarymen would simply never go bankrupt. And if, through some strange combination of unavoidable circumstances, they were threatened with financial ruin, the company would certainly take care of that.) You presided over a corporate bankruptcy? Oh dear. That's even worse than a personal bankruptcy. Not only did you fail personally, you ruined the lives of people to whom you owed society's highest form of loyalty. Hopefully your children will be able to pay off your accumulated debts, you disgraceful excuse for an American. Foreigners, like those plucky Japanese, occasionally describe Americans as plodding clock-punchers without a risk taking bone in their bodies. They just don't get it. Americans love successful entrepreneurs like they love miracles -- sure, most of them happened in ages past, and you'd be absolutely insane to stake your life on one in the present day, but people still tell stories about them. [+] I am very rarely believed when I say this, but it is literally accurate that I had my resume and a stamped copy of my most recent tax return the first time I met Ruriko's mother. I'll elide the specifics of the conversation, because after all she is my mother-in-law, but suffice it to say I was able to bring her around regarding my proposal despite my uncertain employment prospects.

mildtrepidation 13y ago

I think it is not that Japanese culture is risk-averse, but that doing startup in Japan is actually more risky. These two are not the same statement. No, they're not the same; however, I think both are largely true Japan. The culture is risk-averse in that no one wants to be wrong or different, or to be labeled wrong or different, to the extent that their reliance on consensus and avoidance of commitment and confrontation can fairly be called risk aversion. Part of the risk of attempting a startup in Japan is that it marks you as a nonconformist, particularly in terms of your employment history. The drastically reduced chances of finding stable employment if you spend any time outside of the corporate world during your working life very reasonably feed risk aversion.

pjan 13y ago

Based in Japan here. First, I don't think the author claims that the risk is the same; quite the opposite IMO. He clearly states that getting a high exit is very difficult here, that sales cycles are longer, ... which, all the same, make for a higher risk. It's however the task of the entrepreneur to take this into account and be successful within this frame. Having said that, it is an undeniable fact that, in general, Japanese are culturally more risk-averse. Case in point are for example the low seed rounds that can be raised amongst the Japanese investors (i.e. VC not being an entrepreneurial endeavour), the popularity of the idea of life-long employment, ... "lack of disruptive ideas" actually does ring with me, at least when it comes to web-based companies. "Unique ideas", no doubt about that. But disruptive ideas as 1) having a major impact, 2) being viable, and 3) not a localised clone of a successful foreign company... I do challenge you to name me some.

jcl 13y ago

To the author's credit, the article consistently says that "Japanese culture" is risk-averse, not that "Japanese" are risk-averse. If you have two cultures A and B, and A has rules or conventions that reward risky behavior more than B, then I think it's fair to describe culture A as more risk-tolerant and culture B as more risk-averse.