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I think that the brain is influenced by what is often called true randomness (e.g. radioactive decay). If neurons are influenced by true randomness in our envir

by manmal 13y ago

I think that the brain is influenced by what is often called true randomness (e.g. radioactive decay). If neurons are influenced by true randomness in our environment, then the way they fire is not purely deterministic. But I'm not so sure anymore that radioactive decay and the like are purely random. Are they (because of quantum mechanical effects)?

vortmeester 13y ago
As best anyone knows, quantum mechanical effects (like radioactive decay) really are purely and objectively random -- i.e., it is not the case that they appear random because of our ignorance of some deterministic processes. The not-actually-random scenario is called Local Hidden Variable Theory [1], and is ruled out by a series of remarkable experiments based on Bell's Theorem [2]. You can, if you are stubborn, create a theory of QM with non-local hidden variables, but it turns out to be just as weird as orthodox QM; but instead of accepting objective randomness, you have to accept faster-than-light interactions. One example is David Bohm's "pilot wave" theory. [3] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_hidden_variable_theory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_hidden_variable_theory [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell%27s_theorem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell%27s_theorem [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Broglie-Bohm_theory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Broglie-Bohm_theory
- tomp 13y ago
  I guess that the "determinism" that I have in mind is physically called "superdeterminism" [1]. In this sense, the revolution of the universe has been predetermined at the moment of the Big Bang (or even before) and throughout the lifetime of the universe, the next moment in time has been and is completely determined by the previous moment in time. [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superdeterminism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superdeterminism
nooneelse 13y ago
Just to bolster your point that neurons can be influenced by radioactive decay (in case a reader were wanting to dispute any direct influence exists): a person with a Geiger counter can make a decision of any kind based on the parity of a count produced by it. "Even I turn left and go to work, odd I turn right and go to a park."
- manmal 13y ago
  Great point! Given the current state of affairs in quantum physics (again, AFAIK), it can then be argued that there is no real determinism, but randomness and "chaos". (entropy increases in the universe, etc) I can live with that :)

by manmal 13y ago

vortmeester 13y ago

As best anyone knows, quantum mechanical effects (like radioactive decay) really are purely and objectively random -- i.e., it is not the case that they appear random because of our ignorance of some deterministic processes. The not-actually-random scenario is called Local Hidden Variable Theory [1], and is ruled out by a series of remarkable experiments based on Bell's Theorem [2]. You can, if you are stubborn, create a theory of QM with non-local hidden variables, but it turns out to be just as weird as orthodox QM; but instead of accepting objective randomness, you have to accept faster-than-light interactions. One example is David Bohm's "pilot wave" theory. [3] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_hidden_variable_theory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_hidden_variable_theory [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell%27s_theorem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell%27s_theorem [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Broglie-Bohm_theory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Broglie-Bohm_theory

tomp 13y ago
I guess that the "determinism" that I have in mind is physically called "superdeterminism" [1]. In this sense, the revolution of the universe has been predetermined at the moment of the Big Bang (or even before) and throughout the lifetime of the universe, the next moment in time has been and is completely determined by the previous moment in time. [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superdeterminism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superdeterminism

nooneelse 13y ago

Just to bolster your point that neurons can be influenced by radioactive decay (in case a reader were wanting to dispute any direct influence exists): a person with a Geiger counter can make a decision of any kind based on the parity of a count produced by it. "Even I turn left and go to work, odd I turn right and go to a park."

manmal 13y ago
Great point! Given the current state of affairs in quantum physics (again, AFAIK), it can then be argued that there is no real determinism, but randomness and "chaos". (entropy increases in the universe, etc) I can live with that :)