4 ms·

Surprising hardware spec choice given the the market penetration Apple has in the design profession.

by TrevorJ 17y ago

cabalamat 17y ago
Indeed. A 6 bit display in 2009 is inexcusible; I had to check the date of the article because I wasn't sure it had been written this millenium
- old-gregg 17y ago
  If you've been paying attention you would have noticed that the tech goes backwards in the world of LCDs: as time goes on, high-quality LCDs are being displaced by 6-bit junk-panels not only in laptops (there isn't a single one 8-bit LCD laptop available in US right now) but even in desktops as well: 20" iMacs are 6-bit too. Viewing angles and contrast ratios are shrinking as well, hence the disgusting proliferation of contrast-enhancing glass/film panel covers: it's like forcing every customer to wear permanent sunglasses: just because your panel is junk.
  - TrevorJ 17y ago
    I miss a good CRT screen.
    - listic 17y ago
      In any more or less civilized, urban environment you should be able to choose from a selection of used CRT screens. Of course, you should be knowing what you are buying and check them rigorously, as not all of them will be in good condition and CRTs develop various defects when they age. But generally, you can get yourself a decent CRT (or other piece of old equipment, for that matter) if you really want to. I bought 2 CRTs half a year ago, for me and my brother. They were 21" Sony E530, mnf. 2001-2002 Not the top models (F520/G520 are better, and there is also 24" widescreen Sony FW900) but I was not willing to hunt for the better ones, those were quite fine for us. I think of buying 2 more 21" CRTs for the country house.
  - marcocampos 17y ago
    "...there isn't a single one 8-bit LCD laptop available in US right now..." Yes, there is. The HP Elitebook 8730W can be ordered with the a DreamColor 8-bit IPS (or PVA not sure...) LCD panel. And Lenovo used to ship the T-series line with IPS panels. I think the W700 can also be ordered with a IPS WUXGA panel.
    - jsares 17y ago
      Looks like the Sony TT line has an 8bit display: http://www.sony.com.sg/microsite/vaio/products/vaio_tt/8bit.html http://www.sony.com.sg/microsite/vaio/products/vaio_tt/8bit....
  - anigbrowl 17y ago
    Probably the recession has something to do with it. Right now the smart thing to do is compete on price rather than features. 2-3 years from now, the pendulum may swing back the other way.
  - tdavis 17y ago
    Right on the money. Most people have no idea how difficult (and expensive) it is to acquire a decent non-TN LCD. And even when you find one, nobody ever gives the bit depth. The reason the quality has been (and is) receding is because manufacturers have noticed that most people can't tell the difference between e.g. TN and IPS displays, so they produce the former, which are much cheaper. And better options are being phased out all the time; the two LCDs I have were phased out within a couple years. An S-IPS panel now costs at least $100 more than a same-size TN panel, and usually at much lower advertised contrast ratios, which further puts off consumers. Pretty much the only people who buy the good stuff now know their stuff, and we pay a premium because of it.
- GHFigs 17y ago
  All manufacturers use 6-bit displays on most if not all portable models. In fact, the trend has been more use of 6-bit panels, because they can be made larger for cheaper with a lower response time, things which more consumers notice. Last I checked, LG (one of the biggest suppliers) didn't even make 8-bit panels anymore.
- axod 17y ago
  Can the human eye seriously tell the difference? I'd be interested in some stats...
  - lallysingh 17y ago
    The eye can see lots more than 262,144 colors. What's the number, 10 mil? Quick googling gave varying results, depending on what's counted as a distinct color (e.g. differences in luminance).
    - philwelch 17y ago
      Yes but a 6 bit display accomplishes millions of colors through dithering, and your answer says nothing about whether that kind of dithering could fool the eye. Since all colors on a LCD screen are dithered between red, green, and blue anyway, and the human eye has no trouble handling that, the question is whether a higher level dithering would be similarly undetectable.
      - lallysingh 17y ago
        Dithering divides your effective resolution. If you show anything that requires resolution and good color, the artifacts are visible.
      - potatolicious 17y ago
        I'm no color expert but even I could tell the terrible banding issues with gradients on a MacBook's screen. It's extremely apparent as soon as you throw a smooth gradient on screen.
  - ynniv 17y ago
    Yes, when next to similar colors - ie, smooth gradients will show banding.
    - cabalamat 17y ago
      I don't suppose you know of a web page with appropraite gradients, by any chance?
tedunangst 17y ago
Is there an output device other than a "pro" monitor with the same range? If the consumers of your work don't have 8 bit displays, how will they know the difference? It sounds like he was happy with it until he took it apart. If you only discover it's not good enough after checking the part number, I think maybe it is good enough. Anyway, is there a picture somewhere I can download that will show me how awful my shitty 6 bit screen is? I've been skeptical of "I can see/hear more pixels/sin waves than you" before, but I've also seen compelling proof for some of it. PS: Why is it 6 and 8 bit, not 18 and 24? It makes me think you're a retard for thinking 8 bits is enough for 16 million colors, but that seems to be how everyone labels it.
- zaius 17y ago
  Just a guess: it's probably 6/8 bits per R/G/B.
  - Periodic 17y ago
    That's correct. it's 6/8 bits per color. Note that an image that uses 6-bit color with an alpha channel will have 24 bits per pixel, which shouldn't be confused with the 32 bites per pixel of 8-bit color.
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
tdavis 17y ago
Apple has been using comparatively low-quality panels in their laptops for a while. I ran into an issue like this when researching my 17" Macbook Pro purchase in late 2006. I still ended up making the purchase, but it was indeed a lower-quality screen with very apparent dithering under certain color profiles.

Surprising hardware spec choice given the the market penetration Apple has in the design profession.

by TrevorJ 17y ago

Surprising hardware spec choice given the the market penetration Apple has in the design profession.

Indeed. A 6 bit display in 2009 is inexcusible; I had to check the date of the article because I wasn't sure it had been written this millenium

old-gregg 17y ago
If you've been paying attention you would have noticed that the tech goes backwards in the world of LCDs: as time goes on, high-quality LCDs are being displaced by 6-bit junk-panels not only in laptops (there isn't a single one 8-bit LCD laptop available in US right now) but even in desktops as well: 20" iMacs are 6-bit too. Viewing angles and contrast ratios are shrinking as well, hence the disgusting proliferation of contrast-enhancing glass/film panel covers: it's like forcing every customer to wear permanent sunglasses: just because your panel is junk.
- TrevorJ 17y ago
  I miss a good CRT screen.
  - listic 17y ago
    In any more or less civilized, urban environment you should be able to choose from a selection of used CRT screens. Of course, you should be knowing what you are buying and check them rigorously, as not all of them will be in good condition and CRTs develop various defects when they age. But generally, you can get yourself a decent CRT (or other piece of old equipment, for that matter) if you really want to. I bought 2 CRTs half a year ago, for me and my brother. They were 21" Sony E530, mnf. 2001-2002 Not the top models (F520/G520 are better, and there is also 24" widescreen Sony FW900) but I was not willing to hunt for the better ones, those were quite fine for us. I think of buying 2 more 21" CRTs for the country house.
- marcocampos 17y ago
  "...there isn't a single one 8-bit LCD laptop available in US right now..." Yes, there is. The HP Elitebook 8730W can be ordered with the a DreamColor 8-bit IPS (or PVA not sure...) LCD panel. And Lenovo used to ship the T-series line with IPS panels. I think the W700 can also be ordered with a IPS WUXGA panel.
  - jsares 17y ago
    Looks like the Sony TT line has an 8bit display: http://www.sony.com.sg/microsite/vaio/products/vaio_tt/8bit.html http://www.sony.com.sg/microsite/vaio/products/vaio_tt/8bit....
- anigbrowl 17y ago
  Probably the recession has something to do with it. Right now the smart thing to do is compete on price rather than features. 2-3 years from now, the pendulum may swing back the other way.
- tdavis 17y ago
  Right on the money. Most people have no idea how difficult (and expensive) it is to acquire a decent non-TN LCD. And even when you find one, nobody ever gives the bit depth. The reason the quality has been (and is) receding is because manufacturers have noticed that most people can't tell the difference between e.g. TN and IPS displays, so they produce the former, which are much cheaper. And better options are being phased out all the time; the two LCDs I have were phased out within a couple years. An S-IPS panel now costs at least $100 more than a same-size TN panel, and usually at much lower advertised contrast ratios, which further puts off consumers. Pretty much the only people who buy the good stuff now know their stuff, and we pay a premium because of it.
GHFigs 17y ago
All manufacturers use 6-bit displays on most if not all portable models. In fact, the trend has been more use of 6-bit panels, because they can be made larger for cheaper with a lower response time, things which more consumers notice. Last I checked, LG (one of the biggest suppliers) didn't even make 8-bit panels anymore.
axod 17y ago
Can the human eye seriously tell the difference? I'd be interested in some stats...
- lallysingh 17y ago
  The eye can see lots more than 262,144 colors. What's the number, 10 mil? Quick googling gave varying results, depending on what's counted as a distinct color (e.g. differences in luminance).
  - philwelch 17y ago
    Yes but a 6 bit display accomplishes millions of colors through dithering, and your answer says nothing about whether that kind of dithering could fool the eye. Since all colors on a LCD screen are dithered between red, green, and blue anyway, and the human eye has no trouble handling that, the question is whether a higher level dithering would be similarly undetectable.
    - lallysingh 17y ago
      Dithering divides your effective resolution. If you show anything that requires resolution and good color, the artifacts are visible.
    - potatolicious 17y ago
      I'm no color expert but even I could tell the terrible banding issues with gradients on a MacBook's screen. It's extremely apparent as soon as you throw a smooth gradient on screen.
- ynniv 17y ago
  Yes, when next to similar colors - ie, smooth gradients will show banding.
  - cabalamat 17y ago
    I don't suppose you know of a web page with appropraite gradients, by any chance?

tedunangst 17y ago

Is there an output device other than a "pro" monitor with the same range? If the consumers of your work don't have 8 bit displays, how will they know the difference? It sounds like he was happy with it until he took it apart. If you only discover it's not good enough after checking the part number, I think maybe it is good enough. Anyway, is there a picture somewhere I can download that will show me how awful my shitty 6 bit screen is? I've been skeptical of "I can see/hear more pixels/sin waves than you" before, but I've also seen compelling proof for some of it. PS: Why is it 6 and 8 bit, not 18 and 24? It makes me think you're a retard for thinking 8 bits is enough for 16 million colors, but that seems to be how everyone labels it.

zaius 17y ago
Just a guess: it's probably 6/8 bits per R/G/B.
- Periodic 17y ago
  That's correct. it's 6/8 bits per color. Note that an image that uses 6-bit color with an alpha channel will have 24 bits per pixel, which shouldn't be confused with the 32 bites per pixel of 8-bit color.
deleted 17y ago
[deleted]

tdavis 17y ago

Apple has been using comparatively low-quality panels in their laptops for a while. I ran into an issue like this when researching my 17" Macbook Pro purchase in late 2006. I still ended up making the purchase, but it was indeed a lower-quality screen with very apparent dithering under certain color profiles.