9 ms·

The privacy issue in smartphones isn't the freaking application processor running Android. Sure, that ones terrible enough. But the actual problem is the baseb

The privacy issue in smartphones isn't the freaking application processor running Android. Sure, that ones terrible enough. But the actual problem is the baseband processor running completely non-free software, with an enormous attack surface and access to all the interesting periphery (GPS, microphone). There is not just opportunity to compromise your privacy, Qualcomm and others actively implement such features at the behest of governments and carriers. Oh, and if you plug that enormous hole, you get to the SIM card, yet another processor that you have zero control over, but which has access to enough juicy data to compromise your privacy. I highly recommend everyone to watch a talk from 30C3 by Karsten Nohl, where he shows a live attack on an improperly configured SIM card that remotely implants a Java app on the SIM card which continuously sends your cell ID (your approximate location) to the attacker by short message (without notification to the application processor, e.g. Android or iOS): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5B7XyVWgoxg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5B7XyVWgoxg Carriers can do this today. (edit: that's a bit nonsensical, because carriers of course already know your cell id. Anyone with the ability to run a fake basestation momentarily (think IMSI catcher) can do this.)

na85 13y ago
Came here to say this exactly. The world needs an open-source baseband processor/firmware.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- dobbsbob 13y ago
  Osmocom baseband tried this. Works on older motorola phones, then just buy a turbosim with encrypted voice, sms and code your own OTA blocking. Or use a small tablet with no sim using wifi
f_salmon 13y ago
> But the actual problem is the baseband processor running completely non-free software True, and once that one will be made open-source too, there's still the NSA tracking mobile phones worldwide and generating all kinds of privacy-invading data based on it: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nsa-tracking-cellphone-locations-worldwide-snowden-documents-show/2013/12/04/5492873a-5cf2-11e3-bc56-c6ca94801fac_story.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nsa-tr... (And until that is resolved, my mobile phone will stay in flight mode only.) So once again, while tech may help in the short term, long-term solutions will have to be structural/systemic ones regarding government in general.
- pyre 13y ago
  > once that one will be made open-source too The point made elsewhere in this thread is that even an open-source implementation can be exploited. If the baseband is tightly integrated, then that exploit gains the attacker full access. From a security perspective, even a closed-source baseband could be ok as if it has proper separation from the rest of the system (though open-source would obviously be better).
rdl 13y ago
The solution is for your phone to not be a phone. Strip out the baseband entirely, use usb or wifi to a 4G LTE dongle, do VoIP. Extra benefit that you can explicitly know when you're radiating (and thus being location-tracked). Blackphone is pretty lame, IMO. There's something better coming from a trusted source in weeks, and plenty of work being done on the "there is no phone" phone concept.
- tucosan 13y ago
  > There's something better coming from a trusted source in weeks... Could you provide more concrete info on what you are referencing there?
  - rdl 13y ago
    Sorry, no -- it's not my product to announce. By way of validation, it's something I'm planning to use personally, even though it doesn't go as far as I'd ultimately like, until something better exists (which I might be involved in; unclear if client devices are the right focus since end users are so picky about non-security aspects of them, and for me, iOS is generally good against non-NSA threats, and NSA isn't my personal adversary.)
- ABNWZ 13y ago
  >There's something better Is this IndiePhone by Aral Balkan?
  - rdl 13y ago
    I've never heard of this project or person, but it looks interesting too.
- XorNot 13y ago
  Except nobody wants to carry a dongle around in their pocket. Your security measure is useless if it's too much hassle to use day-to-day because most of the time (closing in on 100%) it does not matter.
kybernetyk 13y ago
Hmm, I'd say the real privacy issue is the user who installs and runs all those Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, etc. apps and freely shares his private information with everyone. You can't really prevent that with technology unless you start to educate kids/users better. But who am I kidding? People will forfeit their private data for shiny stuff as long as there will be shiny stuff and private data.
- sushirain 13y ago
  No. The problem is not the common user who just follows common hardware and software. The problem is common hardware and software, which put security last.
  - tunap 13y ago
    And Opt-Ins first.
  - pekk 13y ago
    That hardware and software are being selected by users. Unless you become the government, your "solutions" will be less preferred and will die. At best you can sell luxury products to paranoid, Howard Hughes types.
- brudgers 13y ago
  There are two different connotations of 'privacy' that are often conflated in discussions about Facebook, Google, etc. Conflating them probably obscures the more important connotation to the benefit of such companies' bottom lines. The first connotation is the one my mother warned me about. It's Facebook photos of that tequila weekend in Tijuana and those two PM Tuesday tweets from the beach bar when I called in sick to work. These are things that require personal judgement in regard to what I say. Self-control addresses this type of privacy. The second connotation of privacy is newer, but still nearly twenty years old. It entails concerns regarding information collected about my actions beyond what I explicitly choose to broadcast. It's cookies in the browser [and their more sophisticated descendants]. It's my browser linking my Google+ account to my browsing history at lesbiandwarffurries.com. Privacy issues of this second type are assumed to be normal when they are considered at all - why doesn't my browser sandbox cookies for each website? Or rather why isn't there a browser that does so? The same logic underpins the Blackphone - sand boxing unrelated parts of the system so that privacy is a matter of personal judgement rather a battle against a technically sophisticated adversary.
lazyjones 13y ago
Absolutely correct. This is why such a device should isolate the hardware components used for communication from the main CPU/device, consider the former "hostile" and communicate with them using a simple, safe interface (like USB or serial). Using a throwaway external 3G/LTE adapter (USB) would be even better. This way, a compromised baseband processor or SIM card cannot access the host's memory (using DMA like in current smartphones) and as long as the host uses secure encryption, it can still communicate securely (but of course the device will be detected and identified).
- bergie 13y ago
  I think this is essentially what N900 did. The GSM part was handled as an external modem so that people would be free to have root on the rest of the device. http://flors.wordpress.com/2009/08/27/software-freedom-lovers-here-comes-maemo-5/ http://flors.wordpress.com/2009/08/27/software-freedom-lover...
treenyc 13y ago
by looking at the video I know some of the people in Spain who are involved. They are in Bilbao. We did a consulting project with them in 2009. They are more in the creative educational industry. I am not sure about the technology, however from look of the video I can say it is mostly aim at non-technology experts, with nice fancy design. Can I ask what kind of people do we need to design all the chips hardware such as baseband processor, using open source design? And what are HN opinion on Silent Circle?
- dobbsbob 13y ago
  Silent Circle is for business use to avoid industrial espionage. If you are an activist or suspected criminal I would imagine they would cooperate with any court order to feed you a malicious update that allows federal access just like Hushmail does. They swear up and down this is impossible but it's a for profit business they arent going to risk it protecting whistleblowers, wanted hackers or enviro activists. Redphone at least you can build it yourself and prevent targeted updates
gr3yh47 13y ago
the sub-OS was my immediate thought when I saw it is an android device.
0xdeadbeefbabe 13y ago
Yes, the other OS is way worse. "You can even brick phones permanently" --http://www.osnews.com/story/27416/The_second_operating_system_hiding_in_every_mobile_phone http://www.osnews.com/story/27416/The_second_operating_syste... which was on hn recently.
reedlaw 13y ago
I totally agree that adding privacy features to what is essentially a tracking device isn't addressing the right issues. Why not start out with simply a free, private laptop? Something that uses Coreboot and doesn't require any firmware driver blobs. This is something that so far, only one Chinese company has been able to do, albeit producing only a rather underpowered model [1]. Where are the private laptops that rival the Macbook Pro? 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemote#Netbook_computers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemote#Netbook_computers
- ThatGeoGuy 13y ago
  You appear to have missed the article by the free software foundation where they approved another, fully free computer. See: http://shop.gluglug.org.uk/ http://shop.gluglug.org.uk/

na85 13y ago

Came here to say this exactly. The world needs an open-source baseband processor/firmware.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
dobbsbob 13y ago
Osmocom baseband tried this. Works on older motorola phones, then just buy a turbosim with encrypted voice, sms and code your own OTA blocking. Or use a small tablet with no sim using wifi

f_salmon 13y ago

> But the actual problem is the baseband processor running completely non-free software True, and once that one will be made open-source too, there's still the NSA tracking mobile phones worldwide and generating all kinds of privacy-invading data based on it: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nsa-tracking-cellphone-locations-worldwide-snowden-documents-show/2013/12/04/5492873a-5cf2-11e3-bc56-c6ca94801fac_story.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nsa-tr... (And until that is resolved, my mobile phone will stay in flight mode only.) So once again, while tech may help in the short term, long-term solutions will have to be structural/systemic ones regarding government in general.

pyre 13y ago
> once that one will be made open-source too The point made elsewhere in this thread is that even an open-source implementation can be exploited. If the baseband is tightly integrated, then that exploit gains the attacker full access. From a security perspective, even a closed-source baseband could be ok as if it has proper separation from the rest of the system (though open-source would obviously be better).

rdl 13y ago

The solution is for your phone to not be a phone. Strip out the baseband entirely, use usb or wifi to a 4G LTE dongle, do VoIP. Extra benefit that you can explicitly know when you're radiating (and thus being location-tracked). Blackphone is pretty lame, IMO. There's something better coming from a trusted source in weeks, and plenty of work being done on the "there is no phone" phone concept.

tucosan 13y ago
> There's something better coming from a trusted source in weeks... Could you provide more concrete info on what you are referencing there?
- rdl 13y ago
  Sorry, no -- it's not my product to announce. By way of validation, it's something I'm planning to use personally, even though it doesn't go as far as I'd ultimately like, until something better exists (which I might be involved in; unclear if client devices are the right focus since end users are so picky about non-security aspects of them, and for me, iOS is generally good against non-NSA threats, and NSA isn't my personal adversary.)
ABNWZ 13y ago
>There's something better Is this IndiePhone by Aral Balkan?
- rdl 13y ago
  I've never heard of this project or person, but it looks interesting too.
XorNot 13y ago
Except nobody wants to carry a dongle around in their pocket. Your security measure is useless if it's too much hassle to use day-to-day because most of the time (closing in on 100%) it does not matter.

kybernetyk 13y ago

Hmm, I'd say the real privacy issue is the user who installs and runs all those Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, etc. apps and freely shares his private information with everyone. You can't really prevent that with technology unless you start to educate kids/users better. But who am I kidding? People will forfeit their private data for shiny stuff as long as there will be shiny stuff and private data.

sushirain 13y ago
No. The problem is not the common user who just follows common hardware and software. The problem is common hardware and software, which put security last.
- tunap 13y ago
  And Opt-Ins first.
- pekk 13y ago
  That hardware and software are being selected by users. Unless you become the government, your "solutions" will be less preferred and will die. At best you can sell luxury products to paranoid, Howard Hughes types.
brudgers 13y ago
There are two different connotations of 'privacy' that are often conflated in discussions about Facebook, Google, etc. Conflating them probably obscures the more important connotation to the benefit of such companies' bottom lines. The first connotation is the one my mother warned me about. It's Facebook photos of that tequila weekend in Tijuana and those two PM Tuesday tweets from the beach bar when I called in sick to work. These are things that require personal judgement in regard to what I say. Self-control addresses this type of privacy. The second connotation of privacy is newer, but still nearly twenty years old. It entails concerns regarding information collected about my actions beyond what I explicitly choose to broadcast. It's cookies in the browser [and their more sophisticated descendants]. It's my browser linking my Google+ account to my browsing history at lesbiandwarffurries.com. Privacy issues of this second type are assumed to be normal when they are considered at all - why doesn't my browser sandbox cookies for each website? Or rather why isn't there a browser that does so? The same logic underpins the Blackphone - sand boxing unrelated parts of the system so that privacy is a matter of personal judgement rather a battle against a technically sophisticated adversary.

lazyjones 13y ago

Absolutely correct. This is why such a device should isolate the hardware components used for communication from the main CPU/device, consider the former "hostile" and communicate with them using a simple, safe interface (like USB or serial). Using a throwaway external 3G/LTE adapter (USB) would be even better. This way, a compromised baseband processor or SIM card cannot access the host's memory (using DMA like in current smartphones) and as long as the host uses secure encryption, it can still communicate securely (but of course the device will be detected and identified).

bergie 13y ago
I think this is essentially what N900 did. The GSM part was handled as an external modem so that people would be free to have root on the rest of the device. http://flors.wordpress.com/2009/08/27/software-freedom-lovers-here-comes-maemo-5/ http://flors.wordpress.com/2009/08/27/software-freedom-lover...

treenyc 13y ago

by looking at the video I know some of the people in Spain who are involved. They are in Bilbao. We did a consulting project with them in 2009. They are more in the creative educational industry. I am not sure about the technology, however from look of the video I can say it is mostly aim at non-technology experts, with nice fancy design. Can I ask what kind of people do we need to design all the chips hardware such as baseband processor, using open source design? And what are HN opinion on Silent Circle?

dobbsbob 13y ago
Silent Circle is for business use to avoid industrial espionage. If you are an activist or suspected criminal I would imagine they would cooperate with any court order to feed you a malicious update that allows federal access just like Hushmail does. They swear up and down this is impossible but it's a for profit business they arent going to risk it protecting whistleblowers, wanted hackers or enviro activists. Redphone at least you can build it yourself and prevent targeted updates

gr3yh47 13y ago

the sub-OS was my immediate thought when I saw it is an android device.

0xdeadbeefbabe 13y ago

Yes, the other OS is way worse. "You can even brick phones permanently" --http://www.osnews.com/story/27416/The_second_operating_system_hiding_in_every_mobile_phone http://www.osnews.com/story/27416/The_second_operating_syste... which was on hn recently.

reedlaw 13y ago

I totally agree that adding privacy features to what is essentially a tracking device isn't addressing the right issues. Why not start out with simply a free, private laptop? Something that uses Coreboot and doesn't require any firmware driver blobs. This is something that so far, only one Chinese company has been able to do, albeit producing only a rather underpowered model [1]. Where are the private laptops that rival the Macbook Pro? 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemote#Netbook_computers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemote#Netbook_computers

ThatGeoGuy 13y ago
You appear to have missed the article by the free software foundation where they approved another, fully free computer. See: http://shop.gluglug.org.uk/ http://shop.gluglug.org.uk/