4 ms·

>those dozen or so countries even further down the list than the US do sorta seem like nice places to live Precisely. I'm not sure topping the economic freedom

by ddeck 13y ago

>those dozen or so countries even further down the list than the US do sorta seem like nice places to live Precisely. I'm not sure topping the economic freedom charts is such a desirable goal for the average citizen. Here in Hong Kong (#1 on the list) for example, I have the freedom to legally discriminate against employees based on age, appearance, religious beliefs and sexual orientation. I have the freedom to engage in anti-competitive mergers and monopolize the market. I have the freedom to pay peanuts, demand unpaid overtime, require a 6-day workweek, give one-week leave per year and not pay you for breaks. Freedom to run a toxic bus fleet and burn bunker fuel in my ship while anchored 24/7 1-mile from the center of town. One can argue cause and effect, but I don't think it's coincidence that Hong Kong has the highest income inequality in the developed world[1] and one of the unhappiest populations[2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_eq... [2] http://unsdsn.org/files/2013/09/WorldHappinessReport2013_online.pdf http://unsdsn.org/files/2013/09/WorldHappinessReport2013_onl...

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
hc811 13y ago
Don't you also have the freedom to not take a job you're not happy with?
- zimbatm 13y ago
  What makes you think that other jobs would be better ? Not everyone is as well equipped in life as you are (an assumption based on the fact that you have a computer and time to post on HN). Freedom != opportunities
  - hc811 13y ago
    Hong Kong enjoys one of the lowest unemployment rates in the world among developed countries.[1] Maybe freedom leads to opportunities. [1] http://www.tradingeconomics.com/hong-kong/unemployment-rate http://www.tradingeconomics.com/hong-kong/unemployment-rate
    - ddeck 13y ago
      Correct, and yet the poverty rate is higher than the US, with 33% of the elderly living in poverty. The unemployment rate is not a good measure of opportunity.
  - nirnira 13y ago
    Rubbish. It's nobody's responsibility to pay low-skilled humans higher than market rates in an over-saturated market. As long as labour transactions occur are transparent, free and mutually consenting, why is it your right to force buyers to pay more than the price available sellers are willing to settle for? Potato sellers don't get to force you to buy their goods for $10 a kilo just because they don't like it that their competitors are happy with $2. Labour is a commodity like any other, despite the ridiculous emotionalisation of the market.
    - zimbatm 13y ago
      Where did you see me talking about employer responsibility ? I'm just saying that these people might have a legal freedom but it doesn't necessarily mean they have opportunities to find better jobs. It's just an observation from the real world.
- VLM 13y ago
  sure do, just don't eat, drink, get medical care, shelter, or education. Other than that, no problemo!
  - hc811 13y ago
    Exactly how many citizens in Hong Kong are dying because of hunger or shelter? By the way, "Hong Kong is one of the healthiest places in the world. Hongkongers enjoy a life expectancy of 85.9 for females and 80 for men, which is the third highest in the world, and an infant mortality rate of 3.8 deaths per 1000 births, the fourth lowest in the world." [1] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_in_Hong_Kong http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_in_Hong_Kong
    - bane 13y ago
      > Exactly how many citizens in Hong Kong are dying because of hunger Depending on how you count it, measures of food insecurity in HK show about 1.5 million [1] (in a population of ~7 million). Oxfam in 2011 [2][3], for example, tracks 16% of poor households with children suffer from frequent starvation and 30% from simply not being able to afford enough food. Homelessness is less severe...relatively. Surveys in the city find ~1000 people sleep in the streets -- and local weather makes this a less severe option than say...Toronto. You probably won't die on the streets in HK from exposure. But HK also offers a surprisingly unregulated housing market that allows for people to sublet incredibly small spaces and even stack rental units in a single dwelling like kennels. Estimates put 100,000 people living in these conditions [5] Significantly more live in apartments between 24-40 square feet. [6] But this you could find out for yourself with a minute of googling, that you didn't shows you are simply trying to reinforce some preconceived notion. 1 - http://feedinghk.org/the-big-issues/hunger-101/ http://feedinghk.org/the-big-issues/hunger-101/ 2 - http://www.oxfam.org.hk/en/news_1630.aspx http://www.oxfam.org.hk/en/news_1630.aspx 3 - http://www.oxfam.org.hk/filemgr/1630/FoodSurveyReportAug2011_revised.pdf http://www.oxfam.org.hk/filemgr/1630/FoodSurveyReportAug2011... 4 - http://www.cityu.edu.hk/youeprj/hope/homelessness.html http://www.cityu.edu.hk/youeprj/hope/homelessness.html 5 - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2084971/Hong-Kongs-cage-homes-Tens-thousands-living-6ft-2ft-rabbit-hutches.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2084971/Hong-Kongs-c... 6 - http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/02/shocking-photos-of-cramped-hong-kong-apartments/ http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/02/shocking-photo...

by ddeck 13y ago

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

hc811 13y ago

Don't you also have the freedom to not take a job you're not happy with?

zimbatm 13y ago
What makes you think that other jobs would be better ? Not everyone is as well equipped in life as you are (an assumption based on the fact that you have a computer and time to post on HN). Freedom != opportunities
- hc811 13y ago
  Hong Kong enjoys one of the lowest unemployment rates in the world among developed countries.[1] Maybe freedom leads to opportunities. [1] http://www.tradingeconomics.com/hong-kong/unemployment-rate http://www.tradingeconomics.com/hong-kong/unemployment-rate
  - ddeck 13y ago
    Correct, and yet the poverty rate is higher than the US, with 33% of the elderly living in poverty. The unemployment rate is not a good measure of opportunity.
- nirnira 13y ago
  Rubbish. It's nobody's responsibility to pay low-skilled humans higher than market rates in an over-saturated market. As long as labour transactions occur are transparent, free and mutually consenting, why is it your right to force buyers to pay more than the price available sellers are willing to settle for? Potato sellers don't get to force you to buy their goods for $10 a kilo just because they don't like it that their competitors are happy with $2. Labour is a commodity like any other, despite the ridiculous emotionalisation of the market.
  - zimbatm 13y ago
    Where did you see me talking about employer responsibility ? I'm just saying that these people might have a legal freedom but it doesn't necessarily mean they have opportunities to find better jobs. It's just an observation from the real world.
VLM 13y ago
sure do, just don't eat, drink, get medical care, shelter, or education. Other than that, no problemo!
- hc811 13y ago
  Exactly how many citizens in Hong Kong are dying because of hunger or shelter? By the way, "Hong Kong is one of the healthiest places in the world. Hongkongers enjoy a life expectancy of 85.9 for females and 80 for men, which is the third highest in the world, and an infant mortality rate of 3.8 deaths per 1000 births, the fourth lowest in the world." [1] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_in_Hong_Kong http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_in_Hong_Kong
  - bane 13y ago
    > Exactly how many citizens in Hong Kong are dying because of hunger Depending on how you count it, measures of food insecurity in HK show about 1.5 million [1] (in a population of ~7 million). Oxfam in 2011 [2][3], for example, tracks 16% of poor households with children suffer from frequent starvation and 30% from simply not being able to afford enough food. Homelessness is less severe...relatively. Surveys in the city find ~1000 people sleep in the streets -- and local weather makes this a less severe option than say...Toronto. You probably won't die on the streets in HK from exposure. But HK also offers a surprisingly unregulated housing market that allows for people to sublet incredibly small spaces and even stack rental units in a single dwelling like kennels. Estimates put 100,000 people living in these conditions [5] Significantly more live in apartments between 24-40 square feet. [6] But this you could find out for yourself with a minute of googling, that you didn't shows you are simply trying to reinforce some preconceived notion. 1 - http://feedinghk.org/the-big-issues/hunger-101/ http://feedinghk.org/the-big-issues/hunger-101/ 2 - http://www.oxfam.org.hk/en/news_1630.aspx http://www.oxfam.org.hk/en/news_1630.aspx 3 - http://www.oxfam.org.hk/filemgr/1630/FoodSurveyReportAug2011_revised.pdf http://www.oxfam.org.hk/filemgr/1630/FoodSurveyReportAug2011... 4 - http://www.cityu.edu.hk/youeprj/hope/homelessness.html http://www.cityu.edu.hk/youeprj/hope/homelessness.html 5 - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2084971/Hong-Kongs-cage-homes-Tens-thousands-living-6ft-2ft-rabbit-hutches.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2084971/Hong-Kongs-c... 6 - http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/02/shocking-photos-of-cramped-hong-kong-apartments/ http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/02/shocking-photo...