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I think you are mischaracterizing many of the comments. The abstract value concept is not new to people. What is confusing however, is what the uses are. In th

by oskarth 13y ago

I think you are mischaracterizing many of the comments. The abstract value concept is not new to people. What is confusing however, is what the uses are. In the case of Bitcoin this is easily explained: Silk Road, "laundering" (for good or bad) and speculation. Since this is the first time many people have heard of this currency a natural question is: who is using this and why? In the case of this specific currency, it seems like it's mainly used on social networks like Reddit for small transactions (tip), and due to its origins as a cheap joke currency it managed to get early traction. With this explanation in hand, the concrete uses becomes more clear. Abstract values don't exist in a vacuum. There's always a concrete use of it, even if it's just speculation (Tulips) or gestures of goodwill (~ tip).

baddox 13y ago
> In the case of Bitcoin this is easily explained: Silk Road, "laundering" (for good or bad) and speculation. Or, for people who like Bitcoin: decentralized transaction log, low/no transaction fees, and fraud protection.
- Nursie 13y ago
  Fraud protection? LOL. Fraud enablement is more to the point.
- oskarth 13y ago
  I like Bitcoin. It's odd that I even have to say that to be read correctly. None of the things you mention are uses, they are features. Great features, sure, but it's not something that you actually do with a currency. It's like saying dollars are used by paper, or for central bank. Bitcoin - right now - is not used much for commerce, aside from black market type stuff.
  - potatolicious 13y ago
    > "It's odd that I even have to say that to be read correctly." This is IMO a sign that a discussion has jumped the shark and is no longer worth participating in. Once you get to the "you're either with us or against us" point people have picked their sides and you're arguing against brick walls.
    - oskarth 13y ago
      You are absolutely right. In hindsight I shouldn't have replied. The comment thread would've been shorter and more readable then, too ;)
  - baddox 13y ago
    You were talking specifically about possible explanations for people placing subjective value in Bitcoin. The fact that some of these explanations are "uses" and some are "features" isn't relevant.
- threeseed 13y ago
  Fraud protection ? Are you joking ? Credit card companies almost unconditionally insure their customers against fraudulent transactions. Bitcoin does not. Banks will actively monitor accounts for suspicious transactions and lock the account if necessary. Bitcoin does not. Banks provide a friendly, easy to use and traceable list of your previous transactions. Bitcoin does not. Banks provide a mechanism to reverse transactions. Bitcoin does not.
  - scotty79 13y ago
    I think he meant fraud protection for sellers. "Bitcoins up front." and you are 100% protected from fraud as a seller.
  - SyneRyder 13y ago
    Perhaps baddox meant Fraud protection for the vendor - chargebacks are impossible with Bitcoin, so once the vendor has the money/bitcoin, it's theirs. As a consumer though, I much prefer the fraud protection that the credit card companies provide. And as a vendor, the 1% or less of chargebacks is probably outweighed by the number of customers who do buy because they feel safer using their credit card online.
  - dcc1 13y ago
    Erm all bitcoin transactions are public ALL If you know someones address then you can go back and check all the transactions. As for refunds, merchants selling using bitcoin still have to follow law of the land, in most civilised countries there is a "Supply of Goods and Services Act" or equivalent legislation where a customer is entitled to a repair, replacement or refund if the good/service is bad. Buying with bitcoin is no different to buying in cash You obviously do not understand bitcoin or are confused about some aspects of it.
    - maxerickson 13y ago
      If you and I trust each other a great deal, we can do a transaction by exchanging a private key. Groups of people that trust a third party can also do bitcoin denominated private transactions (the only visible transactions would be with the trusted third party). You see this at most bitcoin exchanges.
jackgavigan 13y ago
Dogecoin's cheap/jokey nature means that what I call the barrier to experimentation is practically non-existent. Let's say you're interested in cryptocurrencies. The hassle and expense you have to go through to get your hands on some Bitcoin is significant enough to put most people off. By contrast, to get your hands on some Dogecoin, just post to /r/dogecoinbeg and you've got a pretty good chance of being tipped some.
lvs 13y ago
Actually, that's precisely the opposite of my point. To have value, an abstraction need not have "uses" in a pragmatic sense. It's easy to list some more common things of ascribed value that have no clear use: hobby collectables, keepsakes, Steam badges and other virtual commodities in video games, Xbox experience points, Ph.D. diplomas, etc. One simply needs to nucleate a community with some irrational desire for an abstraction of value to manifest extant value.

by oskarth 13y ago

baddox 13y ago

> In the case of Bitcoin this is easily explained: Silk Road, "laundering" (for good or bad) and speculation. Or, for people who like Bitcoin: decentralized transaction log, low/no transaction fees, and fraud protection.

Nursie 13y ago
Fraud protection? LOL. Fraud enablement is more to the point.
oskarth 13y ago
I like Bitcoin. It's odd that I even have to say that to be read correctly. None of the things you mention are uses, they are features. Great features, sure, but it's not something that you actually do with a currency. It's like saying dollars are used by paper, or for central bank. Bitcoin - right now - is not used much for commerce, aside from black market type stuff.
- potatolicious 13y ago
  > "It's odd that I even have to say that to be read correctly." This is IMO a sign that a discussion has jumped the shark and is no longer worth participating in. Once you get to the "you're either with us or against us" point people have picked their sides and you're arguing against brick walls.
  - oskarth 13y ago
    You are absolutely right. In hindsight I shouldn't have replied. The comment thread would've been shorter and more readable then, too ;)
- baddox 13y ago
  You were talking specifically about possible explanations for people placing subjective value in Bitcoin. The fact that some of these explanations are "uses" and some are "features" isn't relevant.
threeseed 13y ago
Fraud protection ? Are you joking ? Credit card companies almost unconditionally insure their customers against fraudulent transactions. Bitcoin does not. Banks will actively monitor accounts for suspicious transactions and lock the account if necessary. Bitcoin does not. Banks provide a friendly, easy to use and traceable list of your previous transactions. Bitcoin does not. Banks provide a mechanism to reverse transactions. Bitcoin does not.
- scotty79 13y ago
  I think he meant fraud protection for sellers. "Bitcoins up front." and you are 100% protected from fraud as a seller.
- SyneRyder 13y ago
  Perhaps baddox meant Fraud protection for the vendor - chargebacks are impossible with Bitcoin, so once the vendor has the money/bitcoin, it's theirs. As a consumer though, I much prefer the fraud protection that the credit card companies provide. And as a vendor, the 1% or less of chargebacks is probably outweighed by the number of customers who do buy because they feel safer using their credit card online.
- dcc1 13y ago
  Erm all bitcoin transactions are public ALL If you know someones address then you can go back and check all the transactions. As for refunds, merchants selling using bitcoin still have to follow law of the land, in most civilised countries there is a "Supply of Goods and Services Act" or equivalent legislation where a customer is entitled to a repair, replacement or refund if the good/service is bad. Buying with bitcoin is no different to buying in cash You obviously do not understand bitcoin or are confused about some aspects of it.
  - maxerickson 13y ago
    If you and I trust each other a great deal, we can do a transaction by exchanging a private key. Groups of people that trust a third party can also do bitcoin denominated private transactions (the only visible transactions would be with the trusted third party). You see this at most bitcoin exchanges.

jackgavigan 13y ago

Dogecoin's cheap/jokey nature means that what I call the barrier to experimentation is practically non-existent. Let's say you're interested in cryptocurrencies. The hassle and expense you have to go through to get your hands on some Bitcoin is significant enough to put most people off. By contrast, to get your hands on some Dogecoin, just post to /r/dogecoinbeg and you've got a pretty good chance of being tipped some.

lvs 13y ago

Actually, that's precisely the opposite of my point. To have value, an abstraction need not have "uses" in a pragmatic sense. It's easy to list some more common things of ascribed value that have no clear use: hobby collectables, keepsakes, Steam badges and other virtual commodities in video games, Xbox experience points, Ph.D. diplomas, etc. One simply needs to nucleate a community with some irrational desire for an abstraction of value to manifest extant value.